Football: A Tale of Two Finals

[Wilbur]

21 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

The world is ready to move on to the new Messi.  He’s Polish and plays for Liverpool’s youth team: Musialowski

While in general I think that Musialowski still needs to learn how to shoot, he is fun to watch in the youth teams.

It is likely that this is really a function of the Liverpool youth squads executing the sort of attractive, attacking football that every player that age THINKS they are doing.

Liverpool is leading the way in programmatic youth development in England.  And the new combined training grounds can only help in this regard, so good strategic choices there, too.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

16 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Liverpool is leading the way in programmatic youth development in England.  And the new combined training grounds can only help in this regard, so good strategic choices there, too.

Are they? Their academy has not really been more productive in terms of generating players for the first team (and national team) than Arsenal, City, Chelsea or United. I mean, the only real HG players fighting for a starting spot are TAA and presumably Curtis Jones (I assume he will inherit quite a bit of the games Wijnaldum left).  For the sake of comparission with United it's Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay. I'll ignore Henderson as in, he is not really playing.

Chelsea have Mount and James, and to a lesser degree CHO and Abraham, and arguably Christensen. But on that same note I could've also named Pogba as an United academy product.

Personally, I think City's academy is actually quite good, but the pathway into their frist team is just blocked, for players not named Foden. So their brighter academy products might be better served playing elsewhere (Sancho).

It's very possible, that Liverpool will reap the rewards for building their fancy new training ground for senior team and academy. But right now, I find the claim leading the way a wee bit presumptuous.

[Consigliere]

 

 

ETA.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just had to check Vestergaard's age. Thought he was already above 30 and more like in the winter of his playing career. But he really is just 29,

[john]

11 hours ago, Raja said:

Also, that Rangers Malmo game was 10/10

Oh man. Still, no doubt they’ll make up the money they lost with sales of that disgusting violet shirt they were wearing.

[Wilbur]

43 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Are they? Their academy has not really been more productive in terms of generating players for the first team (and national team) than Arsenal, City, Chelsea or United. I mean, the only real HG players fighting for a starting spot are TAA and presumably Curtis Jones (I assume he will inherit quite a bit of the games Wijnaldum left).  For the sake of comparission with United it's Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay. I'll ignore Henderson as in, he is not really playing.

Chelsea have Mount and James, and to a lesser degree CHO and Abraham, and arguably Christensen. But on that same note I could've also named Pogba as an United academy product.

Personally, I think City's academy is actually quite good, but the pathway into their frist team is just blocked, for players not named Foden. So their brighter academy products might be better served playing elsewhere (Sancho).

It's very possible, that Liverpool will reap the rewards for building their fancy new training ground for senior team and academy. But right now, I find the claim leading the way a wee bit presumptuous.

I see the Liverpool Academy as not only developing players who can compete at the highest level, but also a steady stream of other professionals whose fees fund the Academy.  Thus the development of Elliot, TAA, Neco Williams, Rhys Williams, Jones, Nat Phillips, Sheyi Ojo, Ben Woodburn, Kelleher, etc. is funded by the steady stream of sales.

But more important than those moderate sales each year that keep the Academy afloat, the youth teams since Rafa have played in the same style as the senior squads.  Obviously since Klopp's arrival it has become even more attractive to watch the youth play, but Liverpool have a decade and a half of consistent approach to play as ordained under Benitez's direction.  I believe that this consistent style makes it easier for young players to integrate into the senior team even if they lack world-conquering athleticism, skills, muscularity, etc.

And it may be that other PL Academies strategically seek to replicate the playing style of the senior teams, but in actual competition that isn't obvious.  For instance, Newcastle's youth when Peter Beardsley was in charge of their Academy played some terrific attacking team football while their senior team farted away the clock hoping for draws, or Man United's U17 squad showing a good imitation of tiki-taka while The Chosen One's played out blisteringly boring games.  I don't watch every team's youth, but I do turn on a fair number of the games while I work out in the garage, and for a lot of the junior squads, the only thing they seem to have in common with the top team is the color of their unis.

And the other notable process at LFC is that Klopp seems to provide a roadmap from the Academy into the first team, and we have seen players like Curtis, both Williams, TAA and now Elliot seeming to take that path.  Remember when Barcelona had such a worldview?

The Academy sales in recent years have been steady, with a few highlights each year.  I have read (in the FT?) that LFC, Arsenal, and Man City fund their respective Academy operations through the loan fees, but that may no longer be the case post-Covid.

• Harry Wilson - 15M to Fulham in 2021, plus all his loan fees of ~10M for the past four years previous
• Ovie Ejaria - 4m to Reading in 2020, plus all loan fees previous
• Ryan Kent - 8M to Rangers in 2019, plus loans
• Danny Ward - 15M in 2018 to Leicester, plus loans
• Kevin Stewart - 5M in 2017 to Hull City, plus loans
• Andre Wisdom - 3M in 2017 to Derby, plus loans
• Jordan Ibe - 20M in 2016 to Bournemouth, plus loans

In any case, it may be that other teams possess exactly such a strategic vision and execute equally well.  LFC certainly seem to be doing so.

[polishgenius]

We do have a more established path to the first team for academy kids than Liverpool do- that has been in part because we're just not as good as Liverpool recently, but we are very good at it. There was a point post-Fergie where it looked a bit wobbly but it's righted itself now, though there is a recent focus on buying players in from others and doing the final couple years of development that I don't think Liverpool do to the same extent and isn't the same thing as your Rashfords and Greenwoods. Mind you, if we're talking Hehadtokowski that probably applies to him too.

[ljkeane]

Nice goal for Villarreal. They’ve been all over Chelsea for the last 20 minutes or so.

[polishgenius]

As much as I enjoy Chelsea in difficulty, extra time in a glorified pre-season friendly is a stupid idea.

[Winterfell is Burning]

They put Kepa just for penalties, I'll laugh a lot if he doesn't save any.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Havertz was just terrible.  

[Winterfell is Burning]

4 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

They put Kepa just for penalties, I'll laugh a lot if he doesn't save any.

No laughter for me, though there might be some if Chelsea loses.

[Tywin et al.]

42 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

No laughter for me, though there might be some if Chelsea loses.

The victory was never in doubt! 

[baxus]

12 hours ago, Wilbur said:

And the other notable process at LFC is that Klopp seems to provide a roadmap from the Academy into the first team, and we have seen players like Curtis, both Williams, TAA and now Elliot seeming to take that path.  Remember when Barcelona had such a worldview?

Can we really count Elliot as an Academy player? I get it that he was brought in very young, but at the time he already had some PL games under his belt.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

17 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I see the Liverpool Academy as not only developing players who can compete at the highest level, but also a steady stream of other professionals whose fees fund the Academy.  Thus the development of Elliot, TAA, Neco Williams, Rhys Williams, Jones, Nat Phillips, Sheyi Ojo, Ben Woodburn, Kelleher, etc. is funded by the steady stream of sales.

I'd think Chelsea's loan army would do fairly well on that front, too. My gut feeling is, their academy has created more transfer value than Liverpool's. WRT Elliot' I'd also not call him a Liverpool Academy product. He's a product of Fulham's youth system. You really can't claim credit for him.

[AncalagonTheBlack]

New footy show on youtube, with live debate with PL fan channels, Carra, Keane and Neville. Carra vs Ty (from AFTV!

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

So City have decided they want to make bid for Kane afterall.

150m €. Good thing Financial Fairplay regulations ahve been loosened thanks to Corona....

[Spockydog]

But... But... Mormont said they would never do that. This cannot be happening. 

Joking aside, Levy would be derelict in duty not to accept it. 

All his talk about not selling to a rival club is redundant. Spurs aren't in any kind of rivalry with City. They are competing with teams like West Ham and Everton and us. That is the size of things these days. 

[mormont]

5 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

But... But... Mormont said they would never do that. This cannot be happening. 

That's not quite what I said - I said that it seemed unlikely City could afford two £100m plus bids without significant player sales, and asked if there had been such sales, to which someone (I forget exactly who) kindly listed the sales they'd had this season, many of which I was unaware of. I also said that Kane's desire to move was irrelevant unless City were prepared to pay what Spurs wanted for him, and until now there was no indication that they were willing to go anywhere near that.

Even now, it seems like City are short of Spurs' valuation (the reports I've seen said 150m euros not pounds, which would represent about 80% of Spurs' asking price) but if true that's presumably just an opening bid, and probably won't be dismissed out of hand.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I can only assume City are desperate to win the CL now, this year, and felt they had to do something with PSG clearly getting the upper hand. Because bidding 150 million for a 28 year old with a history of injuries and not the best track record in big games is pure insanity even for football, specially when next year you can have an option that is nearly 10 younger, better, and without a significant injury list (Haaland) for half that price.