Wheel of Time TV Show 7: And There Shall Be Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth

[El Kabong]

7 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Okay. I've only ever read the first two books many years ago...trying to reread book one now...but I'm giving this a go...

And after only one episode, I couldn't stop looking at the actor playing Rand and wondering why they cast Attack of the Clones Era Hayden Christiansen...and why they had the double crossing taxi driver from Mars and the 90s Total Recall playing the...was he the peddler or the gleeman, that wasn't totally clear...and a couple other minor things...

I'll keep going for now though...

Oh thank God, I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

[Gertrude]

26 minutes ago, Maia said:

I am a fan of WoT, but there were always a lot of aspects of it that I saw as flawed, and I am not wholly satisfied by how it ended, so it was never a holy cow to me. Which is why I am open to changes.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel and I agree with you that Egwene and Nyneave needed a little oomph from the start to make their stories feel more relevant sooner to get rid of the "side character" stigma.

Overall I'd say I'm landing at about a 6 or 7 out of ten so far. Not great, but lots of really good things. The clunkers really weigh it down right now though. I hope it smooths out as it gains it's footing.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Infidel said:

Also, the scenery is mind-blowingly amazing...all NZ?

Czech Republic and Slovenia, apparently.

5 minutes ago, Infidel said:

Question: if the Dark One is this mythical shadowy figure just now coming to power, how is it that there is already a full-blown cult in place in shit-stain little towns, with Darkfriend adherents ready to capture people and take them...to where, their local Dark One bureau? Is there something else going on behind the scenes?

The Dark One is also known as Shai'tan (Satan), as is basically the great evil. He was imprisoned by male channelers led by Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, but imperfectly. Not only did this allow him to taint the male half of the One Power, directly leading to the Breaking of the World, but it also means his servants are still around. Darkfriends are basically Satanic cultists, who communicate among themselves, have contact with Fades, may receive information in dreams to serve the Dark One's will, etc.

As to where they would take captured people... well, the Dark One himself is imprisoned in a physical place called Shayol Ghul. It's far, far away, but as it happens, some of the Dark One's followers can get around pretty quickly. Next episode may show an example.

[Werthead]

17 minutes ago, Infidel said:

Question: if the Dark One is this mythical shadowy figure just now coming to power, how is it that there is already a full-blown cult in place in shit-stain little towns, with Darkfriend adherents ready to capture people and take them...to where, their local Dark One bureau? Is there something else going on behind the scenes?

The Dark One is essentially the primeval force of evil in the universe, making it a force to be worshipped like a god (kind of) but also an entity able to touch the world (only just, though) and interact with minions. It's not like, say, Sauron, as a physical entity who wanders around making villainous speeches (it has a bunch of people to do that for it). The books - and apparently the show - are a bit vague on this at the start, probably a relic of WoT v.0.5, where the Dark One was just a powerful but still humanoid bad guy. It got changed in rewrites of the first book.

[Gertrude]

So what do people think of the title sequence? I like the concept, but anything with the animated threads looked poorly done to me and I kinda hated it. Apparently it was well received though. I do like the first weaving where you can see the threads becoming the image, then there's the part where the threads of the weft (?) form a red Aes Sedai - after that they didn't seem to bother showing the threads forming the patterns as obviously. The rest of the images don't even really look like tapestry. Those two things make so very very meh on the whole thing.

Oh, I do really like it starting with a broken thread - that was a nice visual.

[fionwe1987]

I like the visuals well enough, but the music is a tad meh. 

[karaddin]

I'm not saying that most of the criticisms a lot of you have are unwarranted but trust me that this is all more enjoyable if you just stop caring and try to enjoy it. Wert has my sympathies, as an actual critic he can't pursue my philosophy of enjoyment even if he wanted to :p

Personally I really enjoyed these first few episodes a lot. The casting nails the characters well enough and that's what I needed for now. My personal opinion is that most of what felt clunky was a heavy handed way of bringing the audience up to speed on a lot of things in a pretty efficient way and that in the long run this clunkiness will be a distant memory that doesn't weigh on the story.

There were definitely shots where I feel the frame rate/lighting/camera issue/whatever it is the I've seen Daniel Greene talk about which inexplicably makes things look cheap even when they aren't, and I'd really like my brain to abandon that connection.

Third episode was definitely the best for me, everything in Breens Spring was great as was the start of Nynaeve and Lan's relationship. I particularly enjoyed how she got his attention by sneaking up on him, but he was actually amused and shocked with essentially "holy shit you actually tried to kill me lmao".

Perrin killing his wife was probably more than was needed and it being someone else might have worked, but it clearly ties into a reasonable character arc for him so I'm willing to give it some leeway for now. I agree with whoever said the Mat change makes him more sympathetic - his urgency to get home plays a lot less selfishly now, but also gives him a "I'm actually turning into my dad" concern to worry about as he becomes more of a shit with the dagger.

[Jamie Lannister]

Has Elaida shown up yet? That'll be a fun character to see on screen.

[A True Kaniggit]

The Trollocs are too horny for me. 

[Rippounet]

Watched them tonight. Mostly liked what I saw.
It's entertaining and the pace is so fast it's almost impossible to get bored. The flip side of this is that I'm not sure anyone not familiar with the books can really enjoy this, therefore at this point I kinda doubt this will be successful.

The overall quality is slightly above average imho, but mostly thanks to the big budget and Rosamund Pike. The third episode felt far less interesting "without her." It doesn't help that they chose to do a lot of world-building in a single episode. I felt slightly overwhelmed despite having read all the books. I can't see how someone not familiar with them can understand and appreciate all that's happening. The books are not without flaws, but one thing they have going for them is that the plot and the characters develop very progressively, giving us time to take in the scope of the story. The show seems to do the very opposite, and it felt a bit artificial and rushed to me. Though all in all I far prefer rushed to boring, so that certainly doesn't ruin it for me.

There are tons of problems, but most of them can be overlooked imho. The one thing that really doesn't work for me, and that might also not work for any non-book readers imo, is the whitecloaks. On some level they were already cartoon villains in the books (I remember not taking them very seriously), but I think the show had the opportunity to make them something interesting, without introducing a very problematic witch-burning (problematic, because aes sedai shouldn't be that easy to catch and kill). And I just can't buy those costumes, especially how clean they are.

I feel like this is made by actual fans, but there's a little something missing.

[Corvinus85]

15 minutes ago, Jamie Lannister said:

Has Elaida shown up yet? That'll be a fun character to see on screen.

I don't think she's even been cast for this season. There won't be any Caemlyn. 

[SpaceChampion]

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I also have seen some people theorizing that Layla was a darkfriend based on 1.) her sulkiness and 2.) Right before Perrin kills her she is raising her hammer like she is going to attack ... what? The trolloc is out for the count so Perrin is the only plausible target, unless the blocking was that sloppy.

I buy it.  How will the story use that information though?  Perrin might find out from Ishy in his dreams i suppose.

 

They could have skipped all this "rumours of 4 Ta'veren in the Two Rivers" nonsense and have Moiraine and Lan hear from eye and ears in Shienar that Trollocs entered a waygate there, and someone like Hurin followed them in to see shadowspawn are using the Manetheren waygate to get to the Two Rivers, leading Moi and Lan to go there to find out what's going on.

Another idea, which could be simultaneously used was that Moi finally realizing the Pattern has been subtly keeping them away from the TR over the years.  Every time they intended to go there, something else distracted or prevented them.  Too subtle to notice immediately but maybe she kept notes of their journeys and notice recently, now that it's the last place they have yet to check, and from that conclude ONE ta'veren might be there.

[Gertrude]

29 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I buy it.  How will the story use that information though?  

That I don't know, but if they find a good way to use it, I might come around on the whole wife thing. It also explains why the wolf in his dreams was eating Layla. That didn't make sense to me, but perhaps the wolves are wise. We shall see.

 

I think waygates are too complicated to introduce at this point and would take away the punch of their introduction later. Moirain's notes is an interesting idea though. Lots of things they could have done instead of that clunky line.

[Corvinus85]

You would think that if Moiraine heard rumors of ta'veren in the TR, the Black Ajah would have, too. That was a major plot point in New Spring.

[fionwe1987]

I certainly hope the show improves and the choppiness and rush eases. It's definitely possible.

As for why Moiraine's goes to the Two Rivers, in the books, she does know someone from the Two Rivers had a baby near Dragonmount, but only vaguely. The Amyrlin's Bounty didn't reach Tam, so he wasn't on her list.

None of that made it to the show, of course. But the Old Blood did. Which is plenty reason for Moiraine to want to go there. The 4 ta'veren being in the news thing was totally avoidable. 

[VigoTheCarpathian]

6 hours ago, Infidel said:

Question: if the Dark One is this mythical shadowy figure just now coming to power, how is it that there is already a full-blown cult in place in shit-stain little towns, with Darkfriend adherents ready to capture people and take them...to where, their local Dark One bureau? Is there something else going on behind the scenes

Finished watching with my wife and she pointed this out, asked how she knew who she was looking for and could contact a fade so quickly - my answer was “The Dark web”.

[Argonath Diver]

Man, I typed up this whole critique and just deleted it all because it's already been said. 

High fantasy is really hard to depict on screen. I loved the first few books as most 90s teens did, but whoever thought this show would be viable for, what, 12 or 14 seasons? With the absurd amount of locations and characters - none of whom frankly are very compelling upon re-reads anyways? Yeesh. Even if they had an A+ first 3 eps I would have been skeptical the show would survive to the books' completion. 

This C+, awkward and dull first batch has already lost my interest.  Whoof. What a colossal swing and a miss for Bezosland. I hope the rest of the season somehow becomes much more compelling, and I can binge it after it's all out. Til then I'll monitor the universal malaise.

[Denvek]

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

Rewatching Episode 2 I realised how nicely they contrasted Bornhald with Valda, though Bornhald did seem a bit too relaxed about Aes Sedai compared to in the book. I wonder if he's being set up as a Child who's less interested in the Aes Sedai (maybe even sees them as useful if misguided) then he is in really fighting the Shadow, which makes his later death a bigger problem as it leaves the hardliners in charge. Interesting he and his soldiers took off for the Two Rivers immediately, which makes me wonder if we're going back to that story sooner rather than later, whilst Valda took off eastwards (which makes me think it'll be Valda and his Questioners who capture Egwene and Perrin later on, not Bornhald).

I think you've got it the wrong way round - Bornhald was continuing south with his soldiers (so the way they were originally going, presumably to join the fight against Logain), while Valda was going to take the Questioners west to investigate why there were Trollocs.

I agree with whoever up thread said the Padan Fain actor was amazingly well-cast, and also, even though we've only seen him for about 5 seconds, I'd say the same for Logain.

[Ran]

@Argonath Diver

I think Judkins has gestured to the idea of 8 seasons, with some seasons compressing 2-3 books (obviously the later Jordan books), would be sufficient.

@Gertrude

Liked the concept and actually said it was cool out loud when I realized what we were seeing. Also liked the Aes Sedai art. But the literalization of it by showing an actual mechanical loom was not very well done and looked a bit cheap. And the actual theme, as others say, is pretty forgettable.

 

[Chaircat Meow]

As someone hinted at up thread, this is a very faithful adaptation. It captures completely the central characteristic of Jordan's oeuvre: its plodding dullness: I was bored about ten minutes in, which was great, because it was exactly like the book.

I perked up a bit for the attack on the village and liked Rosamund Pike doing magic and stuff but the Trolloc movement was really jerky.