Jump to content

Sansa will claim Casterly Rock in Tyrion’s name, becoming the younger more beautiful one who casts Cersei down and takes all that Cersei holds dear


Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Sansa is first forced to think about her claim and the consequences of her claim to Winterfell in the Kings Landing godswood. She tells Ser Dontos that she no longer needs to be rescued from Kings Landing because she is going to Highgarden to marry Willis Tyrell. Once Dontos points it out, she thinks about it a lot.

Quote

"I will be safe in Highgarden. Willas will keep me safe."

"But he does not know you," Dontos insisted, "and he will not love you. Jonquil, Jonquil, open your sweet eyes, these Tyrells care nothing for you. It's your claim they mean to wed."

"My claim?" She was lost for a moment.

"Sweetling," he told her, "you are heir to Winterfell." He grabbed her again, pleading that she must not do this thing, and Sansa wrenched free and left him swaying beneath the heart tree. She had not visited the godswood since.

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. Sansa had grown up with three brothers. She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead . . . 

(SoS Sansa II)

“My claim” is Sansa’s first thought when Cersei tells her she is to marry Tyrion.

Quote

"Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father's place, since your brother is an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my brother Tyrion."

My claim, she thought, sickened. Dontos the Fool was not so foolish after all; he had seen the truth of it. Sansa backed away from the queen. "I won't." I'm to marry Willas, I'm to be the lady of Highgarden, please . . .

(SOS Sansa III)

Sansa thinks about it again when Tyrion offers to be replaced by Lancel if she would prefer.

Quote

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands." (SoS Sansa III)

And again at the Baelish estate in the Fingers.

Quote

At least I am safe here. Joffrey is dead, he cannot hurt me anymore, and I am only a bastard girl now. Alayne Stone has no husband and no claim. (SoS Sansa VI)

When her Aunt Lysa offered marriage to Sweetrobbin, she adds a conclusion to her thought: that a marriage for love is not in her future.

Quote

How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?"

 The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now. "I . . . can scarcely wait to meet him, my lady. But he is still a child, is he not?" (SoS Sansa VI) 

 In addition to her own position as the presumed heir of Winterfell, Sansa is clearly aware of the rules of succession, the near immutability of vows made by members of the Kingsguard and the Night Watch to renounce lands and titles that impact succession, and how people can be manipulated through threats to their inheritance. GRRM is telling us that Sansa’s understanding of her own and other people’s claims is important. GRRM is also known for subverting expectations. Readers have been conditioned to expect that Sansa’s claim to Winterfell is a key plot point. BUT what if GRRM turns expectations upside down so that, instead of a husband who rules in Sansa's name, Sansa the wife rules in her husband's name.

 I’ve been trying to work out the role of The Vale plot in ASOIAF. This past December, in a post titled Sansa, the Mountain Clans, the “Ivy Special Ops Team,” and an Avalanche, I laid out the evidence that the Vale Mountain Clans know Sansa, and that their paths would cross again. While still betrothed to Joffrey Sansa spent a day in The Hand’s apartments when Tyrion was acting Hand, and was in the care of Timmet son of Timmet and Chella of the Broken Ears. How it will happen will be dramatic – I continue to like the theory of a Clan-induced avalanche during the upcoming tournament. The Clan’s goals are probably as unclear to them as to me, but presumably they will be looking for opportunities for looting and plundering and general mayhem.

GRRM has used coming face to face with the past to help Theon overcome Reek and have Arya surface from Mercy and her other Faceless Men personalities. Following the pattern, on being confronted by people she knows from the past, Sansa will break through the Allayne persona. Sansa surely understands that Tyrion is the heir of Casterly Rock. The rules are that males inherit before females, and Jaime renounced his inheritance when he joined the Kingsguard. To divert the Clans from laying waste to The Vale, Sansa should come forward, remind the Clans of their past service with Tyrion, how well they profited from that service, and ask for their help in claiming Casterly Rock in her husband Tyrion’s name. She should promise them gold and treasure and plenty of action in return for their help. GRRM can have Sansa say something like “I am Lady Lannister, the Lady of Casterly Rock, and as you have heard Tyrion say, in his name, I promise you that a Lannister always pays his debts.” 

The plot possibilities that would be opened if Sansa were to claim Casterly Rock would impact most of the theories about where WoW is going. It would be a good fit for some theories. GRRM promised that the readers will get to “see Casterly Rock.” He didn’t say, but maybe we’ll see it conquered by a Stark via her marriage duties, upholding her husband’s claim. Among other things, taking Casterly Rock would add to Sansa's unequalled position in Westeros. Sansa has a claim to Winterfell, is second in line after Edmure’s (yet to be born) child to Riverrun, has a close ally in Peter Baelish, the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, and another close ally in Robert "Sweetrobbin" Arryn, the Lord Paramount of The Vale. The Knights of the Vale have been itching for action - they would want to join the clans in fighting for Sansa's claim to the Westerlands.

What does Cersei hold more dear than her Lannister heritage? Maggie the Frog’s prophecy to Cersei will be fulfilled.

Quote

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." (Feast Cersei VIII)

What about the charges of regicide for Joffrey’s death and patricide for Tywin’s murder? Sansa might be able to win the clans to her side with her insistence that both she and Tyrion are innocent, that there was a plot to deny Tyrion his rightful heritage. How, after all, could Tyrion have murdered Tywin while escaping from the dungeon 100s of feet below the well-guarded Hand’s quarters? The Clans witnessed first hand how poorly Tyrion was treated by his family and could be inclined to believe such a story. Even if they are skeptical, the Clans and the Vale armies are anxious to fight for something.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Edited by deja vu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Sansa is the younger, more beautiful queen.  She is only a Lady.  A Lady from a house that lost a rebellion and their castle.  She might become the Lady of Winterfell for a brief period though.  Not Casterly Rock.  The latter is too lofty of a station for Sansa.  Her husband is guilty of killing the Hand of the King.  Most people believe him a Kingslayer as well. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, deja vu said:

What does Cersei hold more dear than her Lannister heritage? Maggie the Frog’s prophecy to Cersei will be fulfilled.

I definately think Sansa is being positioned to inherit or make claims on several powerful houses.  Although I think Tyrion will survive and have a prior claim.  He's also promised the Vale to the Mountain Clans.  Cersei will lose everything though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Everything you bring up will be relevant but you seem to be assuming an absence of Tyrion in it all that you shouldn't be. Tyrion will be in Westeros riding Viserion before Sansa leaves the Vale, and the Westerlands will be one thing the power couple take that she won't need to argue they're entitled to. But yes, when the new Lady Lannister starts bossing about the Westerland houses it will seem to Cersei and reader alike that the YMBQ has arrived.

Edited by chrisdaw
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only interest Sansa has regarding the Lannisters is to stay as far away from them as possible.  She wants nothing to do with them - Tyrion included.  I can see her deciding to stay married, simply as a blocking move to keep from being dangled as marriage bait.  But I can't see her taking Casterly Rock, even if it was offered, which it won't be. 

The Vale will be Sansa's proving ground, where she learns the art of politics at the feet of Littlefinger.  At some point  I expect their interests to diverge, and for Sansa to ultimately take him down.  Jeyne Poole and Chekhov's whip marks on her back might come into play.  All clues on that lead to Littlefinger. 

I doubt Sansa is the younger and more beautiful one.  I suspect that the prophecy is a self-fulfilling one, in which case Margaery is the best candidate for it. 

I see Sansa's future being linked to the North.  There is too much Stark and Northern imagery in her story,and it's the area she has most interest in, and her homeland.  I don't necessarily see her making a claim, especially if she knows of Rickon and Bran's survival  but I do see her heading that direction before too long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought that Littlefinger was plotting to have Sansa's marriage to Tyrion annulled though, so she could be married to Harry the Heir. Presumably Tyrion has also been disinherited after his supposed killing of Joffrey.

However, depending on how things work out for Tyrion with Daenerys, I could see him returning to claim the rock. He needs the gold to pay all those people in that sellsword company. I think by that point Sansa's marriage to him would be null and void however, and she'd already have been married to someone else. None of them would be interested in continuing the relationship. Tyrion thought it was cruel and Sansa hated it. Tyrion also doesn't really desire Winterfell, and I don't think Sansa is that enthusiastic about the Rock.

I agree with others that the mountain clans will play an important role in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definitely agree.

Sansa has the potential to make a claim on The Vale, The Riverlands or the West. If the circumstances change, maybe all three. I have long thought that Sansa will learn her craft by playing the game with Littlefinger's tutelage, but that wont last. Once that break happens, there will be multiple paths to power for her.

The Rock is one of those paths. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/8/2022 at 5:44 AM, deja vu said:

 In addition to her own position as the presumed heir of Winterfell, Sansa is clearly aware of the rules of succession, the near immutability of vows made by members of the Kingsguard and the Night Watch to renounce lands and titles that impact succession, and how people can be manipulated through threats to their inheritance. GRRM is telling us that Sansa’s understanding of her own and other people’s claims is important. GRRM is also known for subverting expectations. Readers have been conditioned to expect that Sansa’s claim to Winterfell is a key plot point. BUT what if GRRM turns expectations upside down so that, instead of a husband who rules in Sansa's name, Sansa the wife rules in her husband's name.

With all the effort the author has invested in writing succession issues into Sansa's arc, I can imagine we might be in for a surprise. Sansa taking Casterly Rock in Tyrion's name, I quite like the idea :thumbsup:, also that she may succeed by guile, rather than by brute force, contrasting the Lannister way of doing things. Perhaps GRRM has planted subtle hints to this effect such as Sansa's bastard name - Alayne Stone - stone as in rock. Yes it's the second name for illegitimate children from the Vale but it could be a clue all the same.

Curiously, in this context, Robb Stark married Jeyne Westerling from the Crag, another rock reference and if this should come to be, Sansa would be the Warden of the West or the wife of the Warden of the West, Westerling being a diminuitive form of West. And something else comes to mind - in Brienne's chapters, we are beaten over the head with Brienne looking for Sansa and describing her as:

Quote

“I am looking for my sister. She’s highborn, only three-and-ten, a pretty maid with blue eyes and auburn hair.

I lost count of how many times this showed up and tended to skip over that part of the text but... recall the song that Tyrion keeps singing snitches of  - Seasons of my love - which Tysha used to sing. One verse goes:

Quote

“I loved a maid as red as autumn,
with sunset in her hair.” 

"Red as autumn" is a reference to auburn hair of course and the sun sets in the west... perhaps another clue, especially since Tyrion recalls the song so often. 

Sansa - sunset for Cersei who is described by Kevan as "the rising sun."

I'm doubtful as to Margery, our Queen thrice over being the YMBQ. The trend is going in the direction of Cersei succeeding in finishing her off to prevent the prophecy being fulfilled. Daenerys was my choice but I can see Sansa in this role as well. The question is, how would she attain the title of Queen? Perhaps by marriage to Aegon? She would certainly be an excellent match from his point of view, especially with all other possible claims under her belt. Interesting, very interesting!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t think Sansa has any claim on CR. If she had children with Tyrion, in their name. Or in an extreme emergency where House Lannister dies out…and that would take a LOT of doing…I suppose the king might decide to give it to the widow if she’s got a lot of local support.
 

But as Sansa has never even been there, and has no claim in her own right i don’t see it. That’s like saying the Westerlings could claim Winterfell. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if Lannisters of Rock die and Tyrion's still in Essos hanging with Dany , Sansa could claim CR as her own . but I don't see that lasting and a slim chance in occurring, as I still think Sansa's next step is Winterfell and Stark reunion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cersei values something far bigger than CR.  What she values most is power.  The office and title of queen.  Having or losing Casterly Rock does not affect that title.  Sansa is also not move beautiful than Cersei.  Sansa is not a queen.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
Quote

 The Vale will be Sansa's proving ground, where she learns the art of politics at the feet of Littlefinger.  At some point  I expect their interests to diverge, and for Sansa to ultimately take him down.  Jeyne Poole and Chekhov's whip marks on her back might come into play.  All clues on that lead to Littlefinger. .....

I see Sansa's future being linked to the North.  There is too much Stark and Northern imagery in her story,and it's the area she has most interest in, and her homeland.  I don't necessarily see her making a claim, especially if she knows of Rickon and Bran's survival  but I do see her heading that direction before too long.

Once I shared the thinking that The Vale would remain isolated from the rest of Westeros and internally peaceful long enough for an extended interlude of learning "at the feet of Littlefinger," which might have worked if GRRM had followed the "5 year gap" plan.  With the accelerated pace of the story without the 5 year gap, thinking about the role of Chekhov's Mountain Clans and how they fit into Sansa's arc (the Vale story is Sansa's story since she is the only POV in The Vale) leads me to now think we will not be subjected to another long wait for Sansa to "gain agency" and be thrown back into the game. The gathering of most of the ruling elite and military strength of the Vale for a gala and decidedly non-defensive celebration at the imminent tournament are a perfect set-up for the Clans to stage a surprise attack. The surviving elites and knights will be captives. Sansa has a history of stepping forward at stressful moments. She will realize that she knows some of the Clansmen because of their service with Tyrion. How better to turn a one-sided hostage situation into a negotiation than to call on established loyalties with promises of further rewards? Which does not leave Littlefinger out of the picture. He's pretty good at assessing situations. He would see how much better his situation could be if he were to support Sansa, which would bring the clans into his camp and at the very least cause division among Lannister supporters. Littlefinger would be Sansa's Machiavelli, guiding her every move. One of the first would be leaving The Vale to attend the Frey-Lannister wedding (Red Wedding 2.0?) which could be at the Twins or, more likely, at Riverrun. Sansa would not want to go but, as Littlefinger will insist, if you're in the game there is no choice but to play.  

The outcome of making a claim on the Westerlands in Tyrion's name need not be wholly successful in taking over Casterly Rock to be successful in advancing the causes of The North (House Stark) and the Riverlands (House Tully and, for the moment, House Baelish), each of which has been so recently ravaged by Lannister forces and allies. 

 I am in full agreement that Sansa's ultimate future is linked to The North, and I'm a long-time believer in the importance of Chekhov's whip marks. It's long been my opinion that Littlefinger gained so much influence over Joffrey by giving him Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole to use as he pleased. The things Joffrey couldn't do to Sansa he did to Jeyne Poole. In the show, I believe that Jeyne's fate in Kings Landing was partly written into the character Roz. Sansa will become fully aware of Littlefinger's role in the destruction of House Stark when she meets up with Jeyne Poole. 

Edited by deja vu
grammatical corrections
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, deja vu said:

Once I shared the thinking that The Vale would remain isolated from the rest of Westeros and internally peaceful long enough for an extended interlude of learning "at the feet of Littlefinger," which might have worked if GRRM had followed the "5 year gap" plan.  With the accelerated pace of the story without the 5 year gap, thinking about the role of Chekhov's Mountain Clans and how they fit into Sansa's arc (the Vale story is Sansa's story since she is the only POV in The Vale) leads me to now think we will not be subjected to another long wait for Sansa to "gain agency" and be thrown back into the game. The gathering of most of the ruling elite and military strength of the Vale for a gala and decidedly non-defensive celebration at the imminent tournament are a perfect set-up for the Clans to stage a surprise attack. The surviving elites and knights will be captives. Sansa has a history of stepping forward at stressful moments. She will realize that she knows some of the Clansmen because of their service with Tyrion. How better to turn a one-sided hostage situation into a negotiation than to call on established loyalties with promises of further rewards? Which does not leave Littlefinger out of the picture. He's pretty good at assessing situations. He would see how much better his situation could be if he were to support Sansa, which would bring the clans into his camp and at the very least cause division among Lannister supporters. Littlefinger would be Sansa's Machiavelli, guiding her every move. One of the first would be leaving The Vale to attend the Frey-Lannister wedding (Red Wedding 2.0?) which could be at the Twins or, more likely, at Riverrun. Sansa would not want to go but, as Littlefinger will insist, if you're in the game there is no choice but to play.  

The outcome of making a claim on the Westerlands in Tyrion's name need not be wholly successful in taking over Casterly Rock to be successful in advancing the causes of The North (House Stark) and the Riverlands (House Tully and, for the moment, House Baelish), each of which has been so recently ravaged by Lannister forces and allies. 

 I am in full agreement that Sansa's ultimate future is linked to The North, and I'm a long-time believer in the importance of Chekhov's whip marks. It's long been my opinion that Littlefinger gained so much influence over Joffrey by giving him Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole to use as he pleased. The things Joffrey couldn't do to Sansa he did to Jeyne Poole. In the show, I believe that Jeyne's fate in Kings Landing was partly written into the character Roz. Sansa will become fully aware of Littlefinger's role in the destruction of House Stark when she meets up with Jeyne Poole. 

I doubt we will see the clans much. I think they may have run their course.   In any event, given existing tensions between the various factions in the Vale, I suspect there will be plenty of guys with real weapons at the tourney.  The clans are mostly hit-and-run, so would probably lose a real fight, which something at the tournament would be.

I expect an accelerated pace to Sansa's learning, but given the Vale's isolation, I think she has a couple of years or so (counting the 8 months or so that have passed).  I cannot imagine Littlefinger taking her to the Lannister-Frey wedding.  It will be full of Lannister supporters, some of whom might recognize her.

As for Jeyne Poole, forget it.  Joffrey was bad, but I don't think he was quite that bad.  And sneaking Jeyne through the Red Keep would be foolhardy and unnecessary.  If Sansa ran into her, bad things might happen.  He has plenty of whores available, if needed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...