spoilers [Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

I guess with the 'Song of Ice and Fire' they really went to a place George is likely only going to address in the future books. Rhaegar is the only guy mentioning that thing so far ... and he clearly thinks that it is something connected to the prince that was promised in the 'Targaryen version' of the savior prophecy.

We never knew where this did come from, but having Aegon the Conqueror be the guy who coined it would certainly make sense.

In fact, if you think about, it is hard to imagine anybody else doing that. Daenys the Dreamer could be another candidate in the books, but she didn't conquer Westeros nor did she and her brother-husband Gaemon produce 'princes'. That only started once Aegon I made the Targaryens 'a royal house'. And George deliberately decided that the Dragonstonian Targaryens didn't style themselves Prince of Dragonstone - they were mere lords. So why should Daenys or the earlier Targaryens talk about a song destined for a promised prince? And why would Rhaegar connect the promised prince and the song of ice and fire to a dragon with three heads if that wasn't all an allusion (to something) Aegon the Conqueror (once said or believed)?

Any other Targaryens would flatly not be qualified or important enough in the narrative to coin such most important lore terms. We cannot see Aenys or Aegon III or Baelor or Aegon IV coin something like that, no?

[Zorral]

45 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I think the tourney's violence can also be sorta explained by Rhaenys remarks that neither these kids or their fathers had seen a war. This is their only outlet so they go nuts, and none of them have seen their friends slaughtered en mass.

I'm sorry, it's bad form to quote the same bit of text twice. But I just realized that this may be this show's version of "OMG the liberal bastards made Renly and Loras gay!"

 

From the gitgo this reluctance for a female heir and ruler feels adapted, at least to a degree, from the historical Plantagenet Wars of Anarchy (1138-1153), or as the small folk cried, "Christ and his saints sleep!" *

England's King Henry I died w/out a male heir, as the catastrophe known as the White Ship drowned his son, and none of his efforts after that tragedy beget another.  He named his daughter, Empress Matilda (widow of the Holy Roman Emperor, now married to the Duke of Anjou, who fathered Henry II) as his heir. Henry I's lords and barons swore fealty to her.  However, literally in the moments of Henry I's death, his nephew Stephen of Blois told the lords that the dying king had changed his mind and named him heir.

The wars, back-and-forth commenced, exhausting England -- one of the reason there weren't English royals on the first Crusade, and thus it was a Norman crusade pretty much. The anarchy in England ended only with the coronation of Henry II.  Matilda, who always still styled herself as Empress, lived to see her decade's long efforts to, if not to wear England's crown herself, preserve the crown for her beloved son.

This could indeed make for an epic series of television.

Then came the wars between Henry II's passel of sons, and the those between Henry II and his sons.  Good times those days.

The sex scenes were entirely gratuitous and ugly.  So were the blood, guts and dismemberment Daemon unleashed on doubtless loads of just simple small folk.  The tourney was utterly without the rules that governed tourneys.  But ya, we got it -- Daemon is an evil mfer. But -- in medieval eras, having a tourney to celebrate the birth of an heir who has not yet been birthed, would go against every custom and superstition in the ages when more babies and mothers died in childbirth than lived. And what if the child had lived -- but was a girl?  It's hard to believe a sane king would have done this.  Whereas in other areas this king seems not only sane, but quite likeable and charming, as well as intelligent.

But all of that paled beside showing us this Caesarean section that killed the mother, as they did.  This was particularly horrifying because that shyte is going on right this minute in this country in many ways just in the last few weeks since the overturn by opus dei of Roe.  So here we are.  Nothing changes does it, despite howls of catering to feminist sensibilities.

I have not read whatever books the series is inspired by -- I've had the impression these aren't actually novels, but a sort of chronicle? 

* Or the Lion King. 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Zorral

[AlaerysTargaryen]

I see why GRRM wanted included in HOTD this new revelation about Targaryens knowing about the White walkers , but knowing how anticlimatic the resolution of the "Great Winter" was in GoT , this part of the show didnt sit well with me and felt cringy. It wouldve been better left as a minor foreshadowing in some throwaway dialogue. But as seen in the weeks ahead trailer, the song of ice and fire secret will be promineng trough the series, sigh...

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I see why GRRM wanted included in HOTD this new revelation about Targaryens knowing about the White walkers , but knowing how anticlimatic the resolution of the "Great Winter" was in GoT , this part of the show didnt sit well with me and felt cringy. It wouldve been better left as a minor foreshadowing in some throwaway dialogue. But as seen in the weeks ahead trailer, the song of ice and fire secret will be promineng trough the series, sigh...

I feel terrible that I'm thinking of it foreshadowing Snow versus the ending of GOT.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, AlaerysTargaryen said:

I see why GRRM wanted included in HOTD this new revelation about Targaryens knowing about the White walkers , but knowing how anticlimatic the resolution of the "Great Winter" was in GoT , this part of the show didnt sit well with me and felt cringy. It wouldve been better left as a minor foreshadowing in some throwaway dialogue. But as seen in the weeks ahead trailer, the song of ice and fire secret will be promineng trough the series, sigh...

Well, take it as foreshadowing for TWoW and what we are going to see there. Perhaps Bran is even going to see a fat king talking to a young woman about a song of ice and fire and he has no idea what the guy means. George could easily enough work something like that into the book. But connecting Aegon I to the Song of Ice and Fire is nothing irrelevant for the book stuff. Far from it. That's the title of the whole thing and, so far, its meaning and origin are completely obscure in the books.

For a little detailed talk:

How do you understand Alicent's reaction to Aemma and her inquiry about Viserys when she talks to Otto? I think there are subtle hints that she cares for Viserys in a way she shouldn't and Aemma knows or suspects it ... and she also doesn't want to say it to her father or Rhaenyra (although Otto clearly knows/suspects it, too, and plans to take advantage of it).

Do you think Alicent is correct in her assessment that Rhaenyra is pissed that her father's son would overshadow her? I don't think there is any hint in that direction and that this is Alicent's own secret ambition talking, nor her correct assessment of Rhaenyra.

Who else liked Criston Cole handed the impotent royal prick his due? (I'm joking here, so Daemon fans don't feel personally insulted.) I liked it that his personal feelings actually affected his sexual prowess - those things can happen. With Criston, I almost got a little Dunk vibe there, with his unadorned, practical armor.

[Corvinus85]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I also very much enjoyed that we get actual group discsussions again, meaning council scenes and other group scenes. GoT dropped those pretty early, turning things in chamber play dialogues.

Also good to see that lots of people are there in many other scenes, that the KG are in attendance and do obey their king, etc.

Yes, I liked that all the councilors had their own voices. I'm curious if they're going to give Beesbury more screen time to have what happens later more impactful.

And I didn't realize that they had cast Ser Ryam Redwyne, but it seems that the old knight who was present both with Jaeherys I and later with Viserys and has one speaking line is him. Technically he should have died by now, but for all the badassery of Daemon and Criston, there stands the baddest of them all. (I doubt we'll see him in action)

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And while I still don't like black Velaryons ... Corlys as played by Steve Toussaint is my favorite character so far. It is the little things that make him great. The quiet dignity and confidence, the way how he puts his hand in front of the cup to signal he doesn't want anything to drink, how he hides the little smile when Borros Baratheon (it is he, no?) gives Rhaenys her due, etc.

 In the subtitles it said Boremund and I think it's the same actor who swore the oath later. He had a gray beard, Borros would be much younger.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Yes, I liked that all the councilors had their own voices. I'm curious if they're going to give Beesbury more screen time to have what happens later more impactful.

I'm sure there are going to be more council scenes. Would be great to see those guys develop. Lord Lyonel Strong is so far not particularly impressive, but the reports said he is going to be a swell Hand.

Did anybody realize that Daemon's cunt insult cuts both ways - Otto and Daemon are both second sons who stand to inherit only what they can grab. They don't like each other because they are the same guy, basically ;-).

No idea if they ever develop more on that enmity, but Mr. Crown really goes in the wrong way there. If the heir is an ass then you have to try to better him or at least to befriend ... open antagonism is stupidity.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

And I didn't realize that they had cast Ser Ryam Redwyne, but it seems that the old knight who was present both with Jaeherys I and later with Viserys and has one speaking line is him. Technically he should have died by now, but for all the badassery of Daemon and Criston, there stands the baddest of them all. (I doubt we'll see him in action)

Speaking of the KG, I really liked Ser Harrold Westerling so far. It is great to see that Rhaenyra has a kind of older knight as a friend and one wonders if that's kind of their way to make up for the botched arc of Barristan Selmy in the show.

Spoiler

From what the reports say Westerling will live into season 2 and defect to the Black side with Viserys' stolen crown.

 

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

 In the subtitles it said Boremund and I think it's the same actor who swore the oath later. He had a gray beard, Borros would be much younger.

Oh, okay, if that's so then they messed with the Baratheon family tree considering that Boremund would be Rhaenys' uncle rather than cousin. I thought it was Borros because they talked about 'the Baratheon lads', indicating the guy wasn't that old at that point. Wasn't sure if swearing Boremund later was the same guy as the tourney knight.

But switching another generation between book Boremund/Jocelyn and Rhaenys/Borros isn't a bad idea at all. It was always a stretch to assume that Boremund was born around 50 AC and only had young granddaughters in 129 AC. I guess the idea is then that Boremund and Rhaenys are first cousins, while Borros is then Rhaenys' first cousin once removed, a kind of more distant kinship than they had in the book.

[butterweedstrover]

Anyways, just finished watching it. I thought it was pretty mundane and passive for a premiere meant to hook in viewers.

The sex and gore was fine, I don’t know what I was thinking. After watching so much European stuff I had this exaggerated impression of what that would entail, good thing I was wrong. 

The lighting was too dark. The directing was choppy. Some scenes were too long like the progression into the red keep and others had too many cuts like the Daemon vs. Criston melee. 

The dialogue was overly mundane and focused on exposition. The one scene that might have been powerful was wasted on tin foil theory by Martin.  

The best scene was the tourney but they shouldn’t have spliced it with the pregnancy. I get the dichotomy of the different ‘battlefields’ but it didn’t work; the scene changes were abrupt and made it so that I couldn’t focus on what was going on. 

As for Criston Cole I wished his victory was taken as a bigger surprise and dwelled upon for a moment but the characters acted mostly disinterested. It fell in line with my overall problem which was how low key everything felt. 

The producers were playing it safe, and all the moments that could have been great were hampered by this rushed feeling as if we need to get to the next plot beat. 

Some of the best parts of GOT were the monologues and conversations like War Stories with Bobby B that mellowed the pace and felt relevant to the characters. 

Everything here dialogue related was plot heavy with little characterization (most of which was handled through the subtext). I love subtext but I felt outside of the Otto/Daemon feud most of it wasn’t well communicated.  

Like the later seasons of game of thrones the writers don’t feel confident enough to take risks and left everything in a carefully unsaturated tone.  

It was good, it was well produced, but it wasn’t particularly memorable. If I wasn’t familiar with the source material I wouldn’t feel the urge to go on. 

But this was just one episode. However given the three season target I am worried this trend is a driving philosophy behind the production. Fans will like the bits of lore, but for most casual viewers all that will go over their head. 
 

But, but, the girls (Alicent and Rhaenyra) did an excellent job with what they were given.

Edited August 22, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[TormundsWoman]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

The highlight in terms of the acting was Paddy Considine who managed to show quite a lot of range in just this one episode.

YES!
Can we keep him? I mean I’m sure there’s another way to get the Dance without Viserys dying.

 

[zajaz]

6 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

YES!
Can we keep him? I mean I’m sure there’s another way to get the Dance without Viserys dying.

 

I find the fact that many people already like Viserys funny, seeing as many around this forum some years ago considered him a big idiot. Then again, that was Book Viserys.

Edited August 22, 2022 by zajaz

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

one thing I am now sure of: discussing it beforehand too much wasn't a good idea! here are my thoughts starting with positive ones:

• It had a fairytale/fantasy feel that GoT never had(to be fair not when it wasn't around Dany) .. GoT felt more realistic while this felt more from a foreign universe . which I actually liked.
• music , just like with GoT , was pretty good .
• I liked the dragons quite a bit . it also seems that they're going to make Dragonkeepers a bigger deal in this than in the books which I appreciate . I mean , no one in their right mind would choose dragonkeeping as a profession!!
• the small council scene was good. it was evident that Viserys is a weak king . and serious Corlys was what I expected.
• I liked most of the tourney but what was that stupid fight ?! did that happen like that in middle ages ? because it did not in the books ... and the Rhaenys/Corlys's comments on the fight felt a bit off . 
• I'm undecided about the city watch scenes . I mean it was like Daemon decided he is going to wipe the city out of crime in one single night. wouldn't it be better if it was like this time Daemon had over done it?
• can somebody tell me why sex scenes in GoT universe are usually in the same position and are not really sexy? then again Daemon didn't finish ... so i guess it was not meant to be sexy?!
• I still think Laena and Laenor should have been young adults like Rhaenyra.
• worst part? the prophecy was handled in a cheesy and unsatisfying way . in fact this song of ice and fire was as much interesting as song of ice and fire in the end of GoT's season8's finale
• finally I think it was alright . it wasn't amazing , but it was promising.

It looks like you and I are the same wave length for this one!

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Ryan Condal's the sole writer of the episode, according to the credits. Condal and Sapochnik are the show runners. GRRM has as much or more influence than he did with GoT in the early days, but he's noted in interviews that sometimes the show runners convince him to do something different from what he would have chosen... and sometimes he just acquiesces if they are adamant even if he's unconvinced.

All that said, I think the broad themes are going to be things George is on board with, whatever anyone else may think.

Re: tourney violence,

That's one place where we felt the show went over the top. I admit, sometimes the show goes a bit more lurid than I would have liked, and this is one of those. I think the intention here is that thing they keep saying in interviews: this is a decadent era, its known generations of peace and people are starting to get kind of crazy with it. Consider the pornography in the bed chambers (and realize that you'll notice it in the hallways, too...)

The decadence is another reason why I think there should be more humor. It’s a peaceable time, there should be more merriment.

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I'm guessing doggie style is because you can see both actor's faces, so is just easier. The sex scenes are not meant to be sexy.

I mean, I’m pretty sure they are. There’s no point in having an orgy, or introducing Mysaria during sex rather than any other time, if it wasn’t to titillate.

[RumHam]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess with the 'Song of Ice and Fire' they really went to a place George is likely only going to address in the future books. Rhaegar is the only guy mentioning that thing so far ... and he clearly thinks that it is something connected to the prince that was promised in the 'Targaryen version' of the savior prophecy.

Right, but if it's a King to heir thing, how does it survive Maegor ?

[zajaz]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I mean, I’m pretty sure they are. There’s no point in having an orgy, or introducing Mysaria during sex rather than any other time, if it wasn’t to titillate.

On the sex scenes topic, let us be honest: real (non-pornographic) sex is not always what you would call sexy; it's full of 'do you want to move?' 'I think I'm getting tired of this position', 'Let's switch for a bit', 'You are making funny faces', and that kind of awkward talk, besides weird sounds and gestures. Porn sex is about getting the audience horny; real sex is about making you and your partner feel good. With that being said, I don't think showing realistic sex is what GRRM or HBO is trying to do, so you raise a good point.

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by zajaz

[TormundsWoman]

11 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I find the fact that many people already like Viserys funny, seeing as many around this forum some years ago considered him a big idiot. Then again, that was Book Viserys.

It’s Paddy I loved. Playing Viserys sure, but it’s the acting. I’m 100% the poster I quoted also referred to him. I think Paddy definitely brought something special to book Viserys and we can all thank the Old Gods and the New for that.
 

Also book Viserys was pretty cardboard due to maesters’ writing I suppose. I’m not sure how much of an idiot he was.

[Mark Antony]

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but if it's a King to heir thing, how does it survive Maegor ?

The only thing I could think of is maybe Visenya knew and told Jaehaerys when him and Alyssane were on Dragonstone with her before she died. But that is maybe far fetched
didn’t love the prophecy stuff basically the only reason I disliked it was because of how the original show resolved that. Would be fine otherwise. 

* doesn’t fire and blood also mention Jaehaerys and Alysanne reading a bunch of scrolls on dragonstone when they were waiting for Jaehaerys to take the throne. I guess they could have discovered it themselves also

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mark Antony

[StarksInTheNorth]

10 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I find the fact that many people already like Viserys funny, seeing as many around this forum some years ago considered him a big idiot. Then again, that was Book Viserys.

In-universe, he was a popular, well-liked king during his time. It makes sense that they would try and soften some of his character to make viewers feel that way as well even if their opinion may be different upon reflection, with more context.

Besides that, my main takeaway is that I LOATHE the way they pronounce Aemma as regular Emma. I’ve assumed it was a Valyrian name, since I believe Princess Daella chose it? It makes no sense that Aemma would not be Aye-ma, like other similar Valyrian names: Aye-gon and Aye-mom. Now making me question my sanity. Is Aelor actually El-Or?

I was very excited for Aemma and loved her moments with Rhaenyra. I would’ve loved a conversation between Aemma and Rhaenys though, since this is the first time we’ve ever seen multiple Targaryen women interact, but it would probably be repetitive of the conversation Rhaenys  will have soon with Rhaenyra.

I was surprised by how well they handled the connection to GOT with the mention of the Long Night. I don’t love the concept, and I hope they don’t mention it too much moving forward, but it worked surprisingly well. Also appreciated how they mentioned Rhea Royce, though part of me doubts we see her on screen.

I’ve got some questions about how they handle the Alicent / Viserys build up because he very clearly loved Aemma until the end and seems quite heartbroken. There’s got to be some drama with that pairing to make Alicent believe that Rhaenyra will be ruthless and kill Alicent’s kids, since we’ve seen part of the scene with Alicent and Helaena. They’ve teed it the marriage up nicely with Otto gently pushing the idea of Alicent visiting Viserys, so no one should be shocked, but there’s hopefully some closeness and / or drama there to come.

[Hoffa]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Almost like they want to make other fans feel comfortable and accepted in the setting.

Agree! Cant wait to see all the white people living in Wakanda in the next Black Panther!

I should also feel comfortable and accepted as a white, correct?

 

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Hoffa said:

Agree! Cant wait to see all the white people living in Wakanda in the next Black Panther!

I should also feel comfortable and accepted as a white, correct?

You forgot Everett Ross existed, didn't you?

By which I assume you will now concede the argument and agree that it's fine.

Edited August 22, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Corvinus85]

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but if it's a King to heir thing, how does it survive Maegor ?

 

9 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

The only thing I could think of is maybe Visenya knew and told Jaehaerys when him and Alyssane were on Dragonstone with her before she died. But that is maybe far fetched
didn’t love the prophecy stuff basically the only reason I disliked it was because of how the original show resolved that. Would be fine otherwise. 

* doesn’t fire and blood also mention Jaehaerys and Alysanne reading a bunch of scrolls on dragonstone when they were waiting for Jaehaerys to take the throne. I guess they could have discovered it themselves also

Or since it's a king telling his heir, Aenys may have told Aegon, who maybe told Rhaena before he died and then Rhaena told Jaehaerys. So it's possible Maegor never knew. 

I feel like this whole idea is opening such a can of worms.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Corvinus85

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

Or since it's a king telling his heir, Aenys may have told Aegon, who maybe told Rhaena before he died and then Rhaena told Jaehaerys. So it's possible Maegor never knew. 

I feel like this whole idea is opening such a can or worms.

Funny fact, someone told me "We never did find out the REAL reason why Aegon invaded Westeros."

Like, a year ago.

I'm like, "Is there a reason other than to conquer it?"

And he apparently said there was all sorts of subtext in the books that it was because of the White Walker invasion.