[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

More than half the people I know think Rhaenyra should marry Criston Cole.
Its obvious the show failed to establish that Kingsguards cant marry.

So half the viewership are noobs? Sounds like they've got a hit on their hands. 

[SeanF]

If we rule out 21st century liberal democracy as an anachronism in this world, the question is which system is the least bad?

Probably, the mixed constitution of Braavos, combining elements of monarchy, democracy, and aristocracy.

Below that, ranks the feudal system of Westeros.

Below that, the Ironborn, system of reaving and thraldom. Currently, the leader of the Ironborn is a serial rapist and black magician, who raped his own brothers.

Below that, the free folk system, where the hardest bastards grab the possessions and women they desire.

And at the bottom of the ocean, deep among the whaleshit, are the Eastern slaver oligarchs, who feed children and dwarves to wild beasts for fun, and force boys to strangle babies and puppies.

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

She actually did a pretty good job with Meereen all things considered...

She's definitely better than Cersei and Jon. But she has some serious flaws that are all rooted in her desire to have a home for herself and her loved ones and her habit of people-pleasing.

In any case, the point is that Martin is not pro-anarchy or anti-monarchy by any means.

I think that even Bismarck would have struggled in Slavers Bay.

Daenerys is better than average in this world. But the average standard is not high.

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

Anyone else notice that the boy who informed Otto called Mysaria the “White Worm”.  Hopefully that continues (as per the book), and isn’t just a throwaway line for us book readers.

[The Bard of Banefort]

51 minutes ago, Ran said:

And Maekar with piles of skulls 

What’s this a reference to? I don’t remember it.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If we rule out 21st century liberal democracy as an anachronism in this world, the question is which system is the least bad?

Probably, the mixed constitution of Braavos, combining elements of monarchy, democracy, and aristocracy.

Below that, ranks the feudal system of Westeros.

Below that, the Ironborn, system of reaving and thraldom. Currently, the leader of the Ironborn is a serial rapist and black magician, who raped his own brothers.

Below that, the free folk system, where the hardest bastards grab the possessions and women they desire.

And at the bottom of the ocean, deep among the whaleshit, are the Eastern slaver oligarchs, who feed children and dwarves to wild beasts for fun, and force boys to strangle babies and puppies.

Depends on the circumstances and how you define, "good". 

[Daeron the Daring]

I had a very long day of work to think through things, and I realised how much better the Rhaenyra-Daemon incident of this episode could have been executed. Now of course, this is personal preference to what I think actually happened, and thus I'm not really critical, as I can't really be for the show going for a different narrative (because of the lack of time too), but:

• People enjoy Daemon on the screen. That was expected, no surprise there. I do too, despite the whitewashing. But is his character capable of getting any better at this point? I imagine Daemon should've been similar to what we got in this episode after his eventual marriage with Rhaenyra. It's around then that he should've learned that he is hurting people with his games and ambitions that lead to no advantage or progress. But we get that Daemon in the very beginning, and that makes me wonder wether the character can ever grow or will always stay the thing we met in E1.
• That Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't have sex makes no sense. I guess it's just plain clear Daemon was aiming at her for her status, nothing else. Lord Lyonel Strong was suggesting his execution for treason, some real shit had to go down there to end up considering that as an option. Mushroom's version doesn't feel like it's on that level, but Daemon (as a married man) making a move on his (almost) 16 year old niece and heir to the IT seems like the big deal here. Not to mention that he had to be smart if he wanted his plan to work. Maybe manipulating Rhaenyra into thinking she was making the first move, and use that as a guard against Viserys once the cup spills out (with having the innocent Rhaenyra defending him), only to get seen through by the king and his Council, etc. This would've ended as a good lesson for Rhaenyra, who could've been enamored with Daemon, who was just playing with her. Imagine a scene where Viserys is trying to figure out the truth in front of Daemon and Rhaenyra, and Daemon admitting to just using her for his ambitions, so he gets immediately exiled. Viserys and Rhaenyra being left behind deeply (and actually) hurt, Daemon leaving with an angry face. This would've worked well with Rhaenyra advancing on Daemon later on (after the death of Laenor and Laena), maybe making Daemon think she's using him this time, with the role of the  pawn and the player being switched, only to end being in love, for real this time. (not sure about the last part, when it comes to the books) There you have your romance the people can enjoy (unless they're bothered by incest)
• Now of course, there is the question on why Ser Criston abandons Rhaenyra's cause, which I always tought was because Cole was tryna use the aftermath of the incident to get closer to an emotionally deeply hurt Rhaenyra, only to get refused by her like nothing. The guy ends up being deeply hurt as well, so much so that he becomes a bitter enemy of her, and then Harwin Strong somehow happens.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

40 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

So half the viewership are noobs? Sounds like they've got a hit on their hands. 

I have a strange feeling that most of ROP's viewers are fantasy fans , while HOTD's viewers are mostly from the general public. 

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What’s this a reference to? I don’t remember it.

Err, I meant Maegor! His campaign against the Faith paused for a bit with his return to KL where he displayed ~2,000 skulls that he said belonged to Swords and Stars.

[Daeron the Daring]

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

and force boys to strangle babies and puppies.

Never understood that part. They train the Unsullied their whole life (mentally and physically torturing them), and in the end George says they're just as casual as Westerosi men-at-arms? Makes no sense to me to, considering the effort they put into them.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Daeron the Daring

[The Bard of Banefort]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Err, I meant Maegor! His campaign against the Faith paused for a bit with his return to KL where he displayed ~2,000 skulls that he said belonged to Swords and Stars.

Okay, I thought I missed something haha. Maekar’s reign is quite a mystery at the moment. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Bran being king made sense to me because of the aptitude he showed for leadership in ACOK. Maester Luwin said he was Ned’s “true son.” I think people just fell so in love with the idea that he was going to become a tree that they didn’t consider anything else.

There’s definitely a disconnect between what GRRM was trying to do with Daenerys in ADWD and how we the readers perceived it. George endorsed the Meereenese Blot, which argued that Dany was managing Meereen well, but was left so emotionally unsatisfied that she ended the book by deciding to throw it aside anyway. Most of us just came away thinking she was a poor ruler.

The Meereenese Blot essays come quite close to slavery apologism, IMHO (as did Benioff and Weiss). I far prefer the analysis of Steven Attwell’s Laboratory of Politics.

Dany’s big mistake was not to start an uprising. It was trying to abort it that nearly sank free Meereen.

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Err, I meant Maegor! His campaign against the Faith paused for a bit with his return to KL where he displayed ~2,000 skulls that he said belonged to Swords and Stars.

His law against the faith is celebrated as a common sense reform to remove military power from a religious institution and into the hands of the crown. 
 

Throughout their rule the Targaryen monarchy improved Westeros.

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

 

Probably, the mixed constitution of Braavos, combining elements of monarchy, democracy, and aristocracy.

Braavos is not a model for the seven kingdoms. Braavos like Venice is a trading center that leverages it's economic worth to wedge itself into an advantageous geopolitical position. 

Braavos is to our standards like Singapore or Hong Kong where business leaders are heavily influential in the democratic process. 

Both those are examples of rich societies, but those policies don't function for a productive nation. Westeros has to grow its own food and sustain it's own population without the benefits of free trade, the two aren't comparable. 

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Braavos is not a model for the seven kingdoms. Braavos like Venice is a trading center that leverages it's economic worth to wedge itself into an advantageous geopolitical position. 

Braavos is to our standards like Singapore or Hong Kong where business leaders are heavily influential in the democratic process. 

Both those are examples of rich societies, but those policies don't function for a productive nation. Westeros has to grow its own food and sustain it's own population without the benefits of free trade, the two aren't comparable. 

Braavos is actually more benign than medieval Venice, which was more like a parasite, that gradually converted allies into colonies, that ruled its colonies brutally, and traded in slaves.

I agree that it’s model would not work for the seven kingdoms.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I have a strange feeling that most of ROP's viewers are fantasy fans , while HOTD's viewers are mostly from the general public. 

makes sense to me! I don't think HOTD has much to offer as a fantasy ... at least not anything that hasn't been in GoT .  these writers should really work hard on the characters, especially during the actual war that even the book gets kinda boring,  to keep the audience interested . 

Edited September 13, 2022 by EggBlue

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I had a very long day of work to think through things, and I realised how much better the Rhaenyra-Daemon incident of this episode could have been executed. Now of course, this is personal preference to what I think actually happened, and thus I'm not really critical, as I can't really be for the show going for a different narrative (because of the lack of time too), but:

• People enjoy Daemon on the screen. That was expected, no surprise there. I do too, despite the whitewashing. But is his character capable of getting any better at this point? I imagine Daemon should've been similar to what we got in this episode after his eventual marriage with Rhaenyra. It's around then that he should've learned that he is hurting people with his games and ambitions that lead to no advantage or progress. But we get that Daemon in the very beginning, and that makes me wonder wether the character can ever grow or will always stay the thing we met in E1.
• That Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't have sex makes no sense. I guess it's just plain clear Daemon was aiming at her for her status, nothing else. Lord Lyonel Strong was suggesting his execution for treason, some real shit had to go down there to end up considering that as an option. Mushroom's version doesn't feel like it's on that level, but Daemon (as a married man) making a move on his (almost) 16 year old niece and heir to the IT seems like the big deal here. Not to mention that he had to be smart if he wanted his plan to work. Maybe manipulating Rhaenyra into thinking she was making the first move, and use that as a guard against Viserys once the cup spills out (with having the innocent Rhaenyra defending him), only to get seen through by the king and his Council, etc. This would've ended as a good lesson for Rhaenyra, who could've been enamored with Daemon, who was just playing with her. Imagine a scene where Viserys is trying to figure out the truth in front of Daemon and Rhaenyra, and Daemon admitting to just using her for his ambitions, so he gets immediately exiled. Viserys and Rhaenyra being left behind deeply (and actually) hurt, Daemon leaving with an angry face. This would've worked well with Rhaenyra advancing on Daemon later on (after the death of Laenor and Laena), maybe making Daemon think she's using him this time, with the role of the  pawn and the player being switched, only to end being in love, for real this time. (not sure about the last part, when it comes to the books) There you have your romance the people can enjoy (unless they're bothered by incest)
• Now of course, there is the question on why Ser Criston abandons Rhaenyra's cause, which I always tought was because Cole was tryna use the aftermath of the incident to get closer to an emotionally deeply hurt Rhaenyra, only to get refused by her like nothing. The guy ends up being deeply hurt as well, so much so that he becomes a bitter enemy of her, and then Harwin Strong somehow happens.

I think part of your issue is the show makes it clear that Daemon didn't want Rhaenyra's status and that's why he couldn't do it. The show wanted to make it abundantly clear that Daemon is not someone who wants to hurt anyone in his family and his acting out doing so is something that keeps biting him in the ass.

As for Criston Cole, it seems pretty clear he's going to feel spurned by Rhaenyra when she marries Laenor and takes another lover.

Male Ego.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The Meereenese Blot essays come quite close to slavery apologism, IMHO (as did Benioff and Weiss). I far prefer the analysis of Steven Attwell’s Laboratory of Politics.

Dany’s big mistake was not to start an uprising. It was trying to abort it that nearly sank free Meereen.

I admit, as a lifelong ASOI&F fan, I figured the lesson that Daenerys would learn was that she didn't go FAR ENOUGH and that Mereen is only saved when she obliterates the Slave Families and systems to start over. Which will actually be set up for the "Mad Queen" plot as she is entirely able to rip out root and stem systemic oppression.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I have a strange feeling that most of ROP's viewers are fantasy fans , while HOTD's viewers are mostly from the general public. 

I think that misses that HOTD fans are, by nature, fans of fantasy.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

19 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm all for dumping on the Brackens, but the young boy beating the older guy in a swordfight was definitely unrealistic.

I wouldn't mind GRRM dumping on the Brackens if they got to dump on the Blackwoods every once in a while too. (The closest we get is with Otho and Amos, who btw wins the duel in F & B.)