Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

You know, part of me wants Dany to lose her mind and kill everyone, in the novels, just to annoy these trolls. I'd love to see how they'd spin Dany murdering everyone in Kings Landing into something positive.

The people of King's Landing were traitors who deserved to die. Queen Daenerys spared them a miserable existence in a filthy city. It was very efficient to use the dragon to set off the wildfire rather than sieging the city as usual. Not many would think to do that. Daenerys is very capable and very intelligent.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[The Commentator]

On 5/1/2023 at 1:37 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I could. I think I could do better to be honest.

Anybody can dream.  

 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Anybody can dream.

It's not a dream. Anyone on here could do better.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[The Commentator]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:02 AM, James West said:

 

 

Jon is the comparison.  Dany is more able and more capable.  

Failure is possible.  The mission to give the slaves freedom could fail.  But that has not happened yet.  While Jon already failed at the wall.  Jon failed.  Jon failed the Nights Watch and Westeros.  It's in the past and Jon's tragic time at the wall will be written in the history books for future students to study failure.  Dany can still succeed and help the slaves be free.  

Yup. Jon already failed. That’s past tense. He will be remembered as the one lord commander who ended the watch. Jon the Night’s King 2.0. 
 

The revolution to free the slaves will generally result in success. Dany will receive credit as the hero who made it possible.  

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Yup. Jon already failed. That’s past tense. He will be remembered as the one lord commander who ended the watch. Jon the Night’s King 2.0. 
 

The revolution to free the slaves will generally result in success. Dany will receive credit as the hero who made it possible.  

 

12 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Anybody can dream.  

 

I'll just leave these here. Maybe you’ll listen to yourself since we all know you don’t listen to anyone else anyway. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

They’re both boring, which is a much worse sin than incompetence. One of the reasons why I like AFFC is because I’m spared the the brooding and pouting monotony of their chapters. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They’re both boring, which is a much worse sin than incompetence. One of the reasons why I like AFFC is because I’m spared the the brooding and pouting monotony of their chapters. 

That is certainly an opinion….

[csuszka1948]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

No one reasonable is disputing that. You can still be critical of Daenerys' leadership, however.

 

Yes, but we can also be critical of Jon's leadership, which resulted in him being killed.

I would say Jon is better at rulership but worse at leadership, while Dany is better at leadership and worse at rulership. 

[Darth Sidious]

2 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, but we can also be critical of Jon's leadership, which resulted in him being killed.

I would say Jon is better at rulership but worse at leadership, while Dany is better at leadership and worse at rulership. 

Daenerys is so much better at leading, ruling, and governing than Jon. The challenges she faces at Slaver’s Bay is greater. But then, she is greater than Jon in every positive aspects of ruling.  Jon’s level of incompetence and ethics were such that the men he led were compelled to get rid of him. Daenerys has thousands of followers who are loyal by choice. 
 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, but we can also be critical of Jon's leadership, which resulted in him being killed.

Of course you can... I wasn't disputing that?

I just wanted to make it clear that just because you criticise Daenerys, doesn't mean you are siding with the Slavers.

5 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I would say Jon is better at rulership but worse at leadership, while Dany is better at leadership and worse at rulership. 

Yes, Jon has issues with communicating his plans to everyone, Daenerys usually tells her advisors what the plans are.

[SeanF]

The question of "what was Aragorn's tax policy?" is not one that I think Martin answers well, in Daenerys's storyline in ADWD.

The Daenerys of ASOS would have had no qualms about bringing fire and sword to the slavers, the moment that they stepped out of line.  Her desire to seek peace seems almost like a contrivance, to make things look desperate, just so that we can then get to fire and blood in the next book.  It's a legitimate criticism of the show that characters were made to act out of character, towards the end, but I think it's also a fair criticism of Daenerys' storyline.

I enjoyed Jon's storyline more, in the book, but I still think the obvious thing for him to do was to throw his lot in entirely with Stannis, and accept the lordship of Winterfell, with Val as his bride.

Edited May 5, 2023 by SeanF

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The question of "what was Aragorn's tax policy?" is not one that I think Martin answers well, in Daenerys's storyline in ADWD.

The Daenerys of ASOS would have had no qualms about bringing fire and sword to the slavers, the moment that they stepped out of line.  Her desire to seek peace seems almost like a contrivance, to make things look desperate, just so that we can then get to fire and blood in the next book.  It's a legitimate criticism of the show that characters were made to act out of character, towards the end, but I think it's also a fair criticism of Daenerys' storyline.

I enjoyed Jon's storyline more, in the book, but I still think the obvious thing for him to do was to throw his lot in entirely with Stannis, and accept the lordship of Winterfell, with Val as his bride.

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's much more complex for Dany.

She doesn't just try to rule Meereen, she wants to find a home where she can 'settle down', and that's why she is willing to compromise with the slavers again and again - because these compromises protect the citizens of Meereen and avoid a war, even while condemning the rest of the world to slavery.

At the end of her arc, she comes to the realisation that Meereen won't ever be her home and that her compromises with the slavers weren't worth it, she should have tried to destroy them, then move on towards Westeros, which is the only place she can call home.

 

The problem with this is that Westeros is a continent where she has never stepped foot, whose customs she is unfamiliar with (although this is not her own fault and she can learn them in time), and while it has its own large injustices she would likely try to solve (because of her past experience in Slaver's Bay she will probably deem negotiation only a secondary option&she will believe herself Azor Ahai who will make the world anew), she wouldn't have the support of the smallfolk (unlike the slaves in Meereen) to carry them out.

She will never be able to find home as ruler of Westeros either, the question is whether she realises it before it is too late or not. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by csuszka1948

[astarkchoice]

You could argue danys has made the far bigger ruling mistakes ...mereen and esp astopor but then again shes ruling at a much bigger level.

Astopor shes a teenage girl whos briefly seen how some free cities are run and knows of feudalism...asked to build a goverment  for freedman slaves from the ground up!! Mereen shes worked a little better but still a disaster...and it seems.rather thsan comprimise or clean surgical finding and killong of her enemoes her  leadership when she comesback will be basicly 'iv a dragon do as i say or burn' 

Overall shes the most experience leading on ghe big scale  what is a basicaly a small country in mereens city state!

By contrast jon has been arguably the most  competent nw commander in years. From the saving of the nw  by stannis hes slowly been remaning and refixing the forts along the wall, secured food supplies  and even greenhouses for the watches future, co opted wildlings including a giant into the upcomming battle for mankinds survival! He sees talent and uses it whether its nw, wildling or even a former boy whore! His main mistake you could argue has been not bringing a pro jon  entourage with him!!

That said its a huge step up  from nw commander to something like running a city  or even kingship.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:05 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Daenerys will rule over the seven kingdoms of Westeros just like Aegon the Conqueror did and build back after the  long night.  She is a natural at leadership.  Ruling is not in the future for Jon.  His brief time at ruling the wall was totally a disaster because he was unfit for command. 

I agree.  Daenerys should rule Westeros and any other lands she would like to.  She's already very good and her experience in Meereen will make her even better.  Jon on the other hand was an awful commander.  Jon was pretty good at fighting but he was just awful at leadership. 

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

She's already very good

One city she ruled over sacked with the majority of its male population dead. The other is so plagued with dysentery that people would rather die in battle than stay there. And this is the person you think is going to be able to rule multiple continents. I don't think we are reading the same book.

[astarkchoice]

38 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

One city she ruled over sacked with the majority of its male population dead. The other is so plagued with dysentery that people would rather die in battle than stay there. And this is the person you think is going to be able to rule multiple continents. I don't think we are reading the same book.

This 

She banned the pitfights as she felt they were icky

A major economic hub for the city , tied to the locals religion and putting out of work many heavily built and well trained men and women (the harpies  foot soilders basicaly).

[Sandy Clegg]

Controversial opinion maybe but I’d say Jon and Dany are kind of equal. 

[JonSnow4President]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Controversial opinion maybe but I’d say Jon and Dany are kind of equal. 

I'd really agree with this.  They're both in rough positions, and both are making fairly similar decisions in the grand scheme of things, although the difference in circumstances has really brought out the difference in outcomes.

Dany has more power post-Astapor, and thus is more able to effect her decisions.  She's also opted into her current situation to a greater degree than Jon, IMO.  She chose to gamble that the Unsullied would follow her, and chose to use that power to sack Astapor. She chose to leave Yunkai largely intact in her rear.  She chose to conquer and stay in Mereen, which is her biggest issue. All of her issues stem from the shocks she chose to put into the system.

Compare to Jon.  He wasn't involved with being elected Lord Commander.  His decisions regarding the Wildlings and Stannis are mostly responsive rather than proactive.  Even Hardhome is responsive the the threat posed by the Others, which Jon has done nothing to instigate.  The exception is of course signing off on sending Mance & the spearwives to Winterfell to try and save Arya.  That was the straw that broke the camel's back, but most of Jon's issues stem from the shocks that other entities put into the system.

If you give each of them a fiefdom in a neutral time period of Westeros, I think both are roughly as capable of rule and politicking. They're both slightly naive, but not so much so as to be completely taken advantage of. They're both trying to do what they think is right, both have shown the ability and desire to reach across and meet the opposition halfway on negotiable points, and the ability to stick to their non-negotiable points. They're both young and they're both imperfect, but I don't think one is clearly a better leader than the other at this point.

[StarkTullies]

20 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon was pretty good at fighting but he was just awful at leadership.

When has Jon ever shown to be great at fighting?  In his training exercises with his peers?  That's about it.  Jon threw a flaming cloth at a wight, he ambushed a Wildling scouting camp in stealth, he fought Qhorin Halfhand in which Qhorin intentionally let Jon defeat him, and he had partial command in the Battle of the Wall by dropping oil, shooting arrows, etc. etc.  That's about it.  Sam has been involved in more fighting than Jon has.  Longclaw hasn't gotten much use so far.

I've always assumed that most of the most militant anti-Stark hatred comes from show fans who actually haven't read the books, and posts like these don't help dissuade me.  Jon being a master fighter has not (so far) been demonstrated in the books.

Edited May 8, 2023 by StarkTullies

[JonSnow4President]

20 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I agree.  Daenerys should rule Westeros and any other lands she would like to.  She's already very good and her experience in Meereen will make her even better.  Jon on the other hand was an awful commander.  Jon was pretty good at fighting but he was just awful at leadership. 

Are we talking book Jon or Show Jon?  Book Jon gets chosen to be groomed for command largely because he demonstrates leadership potential (training yard, arguing for Sam to be graduated out of training). Show Jon swing sword good, but is an incompetent buffoon who cannot do anything right other than swing sword good.

Edited May 8, 2023 by JonSnow4President
Added parenthetical