[Spoilers] Rings of Power 4: The Battle for Middle-Earth begins

[IlyaP]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Speaking of The Hobbit, I've heard that there are some fan edits that chop the three films in like half their length, and attempt to be much closer to the book. Wonder if anyone has seen them? One's called the M4 Edit, another is the Tolkien edit, another still is The Battle of the Five Edits... Hmm!

So I've watched a lot of these, including The Gathering of the Clouds, The Maple Edit, The Tolkien Edit and There and Back Again: A Hobbit's Cut, with The Hobbit Cut being the best of the bunch. 

[IlyaP]

32 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I mean not necessarily coz the LotR movies are awesome so only a few being better just means there are a few awesome awesome ones. 

I'd put D&D: Honor Among Thieves on the list of good if not outright awesome contemporary movies. 

But I would not include any of the Dungeon Siege movies. Yes. Plural. I have them because I am a sucker for punishment and clearly Dominic Purcell and Dolph Lundgren needed some extra cash. (They're...not good. Not even a little.)

[IFR]

59 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

I mean not necessarily coz the LotR movies are awesome so only a few being better just means there are a few awesome awesome ones. 

In any case, nearly everything by Hayao Miyazaki can go on the list.

Also Beasts of the Southern Wild.

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Probably other wuxia to add to that list but sadly I don't know that genre nearly as well as I'd like. 

 

(it probably is fair to say that scifi has gotten more prestige attention than fantasy down the years, though, especially in Hollywood)

I like your list. I haven't seen Beasts of the Southern Wild, so I'll watch that.

And I agree - scifi does seem to draw more prestige. I have trouble seeing anything in fantasy ever eclipsing 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[polishgenius]

Oh yeah, add Cartoon Saloon's Irish folklore trilogy to the list. Well, the first two- I need to get on and finally watch Wolfwalkers but I have no doubt it'll be up there too.

 

39 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

I'd put D&D: Honor Among Thieves on the list of good if not outright awesome contemporary movies. 

 

 D&D good, Puss in Boots better. 

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Which means… make the show look like Jackson’s films.

Well not only that, but also have it have wizards, Hobbits, "unlikely heroes", a friendship a hyper-competent elf and a funny dwarf, etc.

[Durckad]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Here’s the thing.  I don’t think they are “stupid” they must have a business or narrative rationale for the time compression.

I assume it's so they don't have to constantly cycle through actors to play (relatively) bit parts amongst the various dwarves, humans, and Numenoreans. Which, honestly could have been a pretty interesting take if the elves (and Sauron) are the main characters anchoring the story. But nope, can't have that, need big dumb action instead.

I'm also assuming that Amazon execs had a bunch of stipulations around what the show "needed" to have and the writers were forced to write around them. The hobbits/harfoots being one notable example I believe.

[Slurktan]

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The flim was nearly four hours.  They couldn’t film Gandalf and Pippin riding through the Rammas?  Everything at the Rammas takes place off stage in the book.  You could still focus the action on the seige of Minas Tirith with very little change.

Why would they build a set/make extra CGI when they could just reuse what they already had?  That's how you make films and control costs.  I don't like what they replaced it with but getting rid of the Rammas stuff is perfectly fine.  It is not needed in a film as it is just extra.  It's primary function as a storytelling tool in the book is just as a rallying point for the Rohirrim before the charge, everything else is gravy.

[Corvinus85]

Having recently re-watched the LOTR EE trilogy there are two moments that make me chuckle the most in Return of the King.

• During Faramir's doomed charge, when the orcs slowly get out of their hiding places and they all have this look on their faces that says what are these idiots doing?
• That the Gondorian archers need to be told not to fire their arrows at the steel-enforced siege towers.

@Ser Scot A Ellison Gondor was indeed oversimplified in RotK, and a lot had to do with the entire structure of the film. They put in the film the entire part of Frodo & Sam travelling from Osgiliath to Cirith Ungol which should have been in TTT. The part at the tower of Orthanc with the palantir is also in TTT in the book. It surprises me that so much from the second volume's material was taken out of the second film and put in the other two films, especially RotK, yet it still slightly longer than TFotR.

So there wasn't much time to setup the Rammas Echor and other things. I've always been disappointed that we didn't get the mustering of the hosts, no knights of Dol Amroth. I even understand their use of the bubbles of death up to a certain point. The dead of Dwimorberg were necessary for Aragorn's character development; the Gondorians of Pelargir not so much. The main silly part about the bubbles of death is that they still used the Corsair ships to get there when they could have simply floated overland to Minas Tirith. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Having recently re-watched the LOTR EE trilogy there are two moments that make me chuckle the most in Return of the King.

• During Faramir's doomed charge, when the orcs slowly get out of their hiding places and they all have this look on their faces that says what are these idiots doing?
• That the Gondorian archers need to be told not to fire their arrows at the steel-enforced siege towers.

@Ser Scot A Ellison Gondor was indeed oversimplified in RotK, and a lot had to do with the entire structure of the film. They put in the film the entire part of Frodo & Sam travelling from Osgiliath to Cirith Ungol which should have been in TTT. The part at the tower of Orthanc with the palantir is also in TTT in the book. It surprises me that so much from the second volume's material was taken out of the second film and put in the other two films, especially RotK, yet it still slightly longer than TFotR.

So there wasn't much time to setup the Rammas Echor and other things. I've always been disappointed that we didn't get the mustering of the hosts, no knights of Dol Amroth. I even understand their use of the bubbles of death up to a certain point. The dead of Dwimorberg were necessary for Aragorn's character development; the Gondorians of Pelargir not so much. The main silly part about the bubbles of death is that they still used the Corsair ships to get there when they could have simply floated overland to Minas Tirith. 

I think Jackson blew his wad on Helm’s Deep.  Even that has problems.  Hundreds of Elvish warriors randomly show up at Helm’s Deep (when the decision to go there was last minute and somehow they slip into the Deeping Coombe ahead of the 10,000 strong force of Uruk Hai that was right on Aragorn’s heels) then are killed to a man defending the Deeping Wall… do Elves not believe in tactical retreat?  Then a charge down a slope so steep that the horses would be stumbling and killing their riders.  

The Helm’s Deep battle… looks good.  But it doesn’t make sense at all.  

Similarly the use of chunks of wall by Gondorian catapults is just stupid.  You use rounded munitions to get better range and hopefully some roll after impact.  

Tolkien’s battles had a certian sense of tactical know how.  Jackson’s battles were just stupid.

Edited January 4 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Rippounet]

Also, the final desperate charge before Gandalf shows up is like 5 or 6 riders, which has always irked me. A dozen would have been much better.

[Corvinus85]

Realistically Theoden's charge out of the keep would have been stopped right at the door of the hall. Too much mass of Uruk-hai, not enough momentum for those few horses. In fairness the book also has its moments where characters are vaguely described as doing something far beyond the normal. This is why I don't criticize the films' cartoonish action moments. It's a visual medium, the extraordinary must be shown in some way.

[IFR]

Are there many movies with sound battle tactics?

Saving Private Ryan and Kubrick's Spartacus. Seven Samurai, although that's at a smaller scale. And Ran, I suppose, although that's more about unchecked ambushes, but at least the ambushers were effective and practically depicted as such. Anything else?

Edited January 4 by IFR

[Derfel Cadarn]

Most movies seem to have shitty tactics. Empire Strikes Back’s Hoth battle is dumb too

[Ran]

Historical war films tend to be decent, more often than not. Gettysburg, for example, is a pretty accurate depiction of the battle, particularly the action around Little Round Top. Films that really focused on a battle or war. Black Hawk Down is a military disaster film, but the fact is that the US troops held out against enormous numbers for much longer than one would expect, and that's largely due to the training and doctrine.

Alexander by Oliver Stone is also pretty good in this regard, with some terrific depictions of the Macdeonian phalanx.

Alatriste is pretty good.

Not a movie, but Band of Brothers and The Pacific both are accurate accounts of actual battles and skirmishes during the European and Pacific theatres of WWII. In particular, the Brecourt Manor roll up of the German gun positions was for many years (and perhaps still is) taught as a classic example of small arms tactics.

Oh, Master and Commander is great for early 19th century naval warfare, and there's some excellent realization of naval tactics of the era.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Oh, Master and Commander is great for early 19th century naval warfare, and there's some excellent realization of naval tactics of the era.

“What is the Weather Gauge?”

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Having recently re-watched the LOTR EE trilogy there are two moments that make me chuckle the most in Return of the King.

• During Faramir's doomed charge, when the orcs slowly get out of their hiding places and they all have this look on their faces that says what are these idiots doing?
• That the Gondorian archers need to be told not to fire their arrows at the steel-enforced siege towers.

@Ser Scot A Ellison Gondor was indeed oversimplified in RotK, and a lot had to do with the entire structure of the film. They put in the film the entire part of Frodo & Sam travelling from Osgiliath to Cirith Ungol which should have been in TTT. The part at the tower of Orthanc with the palantir is also in TTT in the book. It surprises me that so much from the second volume's material was taken out of the second film and put in the other two films, especially RotK, yet it still slightly longer than TFotR.

So there wasn't much time to setup the Rammas Echor and other things. I've always been disappointed that we didn't get the mustering of the hosts, no knights of Dol Amroth. I even understand their use of the bubbles of death up to a certain point. The dead of Dwimorberg were necessary for Aragorn's character development; the Gondorians of Pelargir not so much. The main silly part about the bubbles of death is that they still used the Corsair ships to get there when they could have simply floated overland to Minas Tirith. 

That's simply using the correct timeline. Tolkien had events happening out of synch with one another (due to his device of doing a full book of Sam and Frodo and then another full book of Aragorn, Pippin etc. Once you straighten out the timeline (using the Roll of Years), those events in the movie are actually happening at the correct time. That's a Tolkien issue, and Jackson (correctly) believed you had to intercut the stories for a visual medium

[Corvinus85]

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That's simply using the correct timeline. Tolkien had events happening out of synch with one another (due to his device of doing a full book of Sam and Frodo and then another full book of Aragorn, Pippin etc. Once you straighten out the timeline (using the Roll of Years), those events in the movie are actually happening at the correct time. That's a Tolkien issue, and Jackson (correctly) believed you had to intercut the stories for a visual medium

I agree with this. It's just that RotK had to suffer some because of it or make it a 5 hour movie.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think Jackson blew his wad on Helm’s Deep.  Even that has problems.  Hundreds of Elvish warriors randomly show up at Helm’s Deep (when the decision to go there was last minute and somehow they slip into the Deeping Coombe ahead of the 10,000 strong force of Uruk Hai that was right on Aragorn’s heels) then are killed to a man defending the Deeping Wall… do Elves not believe in tactical retreat?  Then a charge down a slope so steep that the horses would be stumbling and killing their riders.  

The Helm’s Deep battle… looks good.  But it doesn’t make sense at all.  

The weird part about the elves coming to Helm's Deep is the seeming telepathic communication between Elrond and Galadriel. I think what the movie tried to convey with that confusing scene is that Elrond had the foresight to see how much trouble Rohan was in, sent a message to Galadriel since there were way more warriors in Lorien than Imladris, and she sent Haldir with 300 elves. I can understand the elves being able to move quickly and largely undetected across Rohan and show up at the right time. Just the execution how all of this was shown is not that good.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The weird part about the elves coming to Helm's Deep is the seeming telepathic communication between Elrond and Galadriel. I think what the movie tried to convey with that confusing scene is that Elrond had the foresight to see how much trouble Rohan was in, sent a message to Galadriel since there were way more warriors in Lorien than Imladris, and she sent Haldir with 300 elves. I can understand the elves being able to move quickly and largely undetected across Rohan and show up at the right time. Just the execution how all of this was shown is not that good.

How… did the Lothlorian elves know where to go?  Gandalf (unlike the books) in the films hated the idea of moving the Rohirrim to Helm’s Deep.  He scoffed at Theoden’s choice.  If Gandalf thought it was a stupid choice why wouldn’t the Elvish forces be wandering the West Emnet and the Westfold looking for where the pitched battle was taking place as opposed to making a beeline for the already invested Helm’s Deep?

I don’t really mind the Elves showing up.  I mind them showing up in a way that strains credulity.

[Corvinus85]

47 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How… did the Lothlorian elves know where to go?  Gandalf (unlike the books) in the films hated the idea of moving the Rohirrim to Helm’s Deep.  He scoffed at Theoden’s choice.  If Gandalf thought it was a stupid choice why wouldn’t the Elvish forces be wandering the West Emnet and the Westfold looking for where the pitched battle was taking place as opposed to making a beeline for the already invested Helm’s Deep?

I don’t really mind the Elves showing up.  I mind them showing up in a way that strains credulity.

I think it would be easy for them to scout and gather rumors. Theoden's march with all the civilians would not be hidden from anyone.