[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[Gertrude]

I agree that the ending for the Seanchan was infuriating and I hated it (and by extension it greatly damaged my estimation of Mat). I would love to see this changed in the story. They can't leave it hanging that Tuon just willfully ignores it and everyone lets her. I kind of get why it happened in the books (I suspect the outriggers would have covered it, and it wasn't something Sanderson could have dealt with in the remaining books.) but that's not going to fly for a wider audience IMO.

[Maia]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

 I kind of get why it happened in the books (I suspect the outriggers would have covered it, and it wasn't something Sanderson could have dealt with in the remaining books.) but that's not going to fly for a wider audience IMO.

 

I don't get it. IMHO he could have set it up so that the cat was publicly out of the bag if the situation became desperate enough during the Last Battle that experienced sul'dam had to start channeling to save the day. Personally, I was expecting it. I thought that that's where the plot with captive sul'dam entrusted to Elayne, as well as Seta/Betamin was going.  Would have been a good exit for Siuan if she had been involved in convincing the sul'dam to pitch in before getting cut down. It would have still left things open for the outriggers (honoring Jordan's intention, I guess?), since the Seanchan in Randland would have had to come to terms with it and of course there would have been the whole mainland culture to contend with.

It is utterly ridiculous that Tuon didn't even return people kidnapped from the WT after her agreement - and Egwene didn't even ask for them! How could  intentions of Seanchan have been trusted if they didn't even do the minimum to smooth over things with the new allies after their completely unprovoked attack? I guess that Sanderson didn't want to deal with Elaida again, but that's not a good excuse.

[Gertrude]

I guess I mean that Jordan didn't account for it in his plans and Sanderson didn't feel comfortable introducing such a big game changer into the end with all the other things he was juggling. Of course he could had dealt with it, but I am just speculating that he probably didn't want to at that point. I never had the impression that the sul'dam would channel in dire straights. Could they even? I don't remember if we saw any of them channel on their own, They could through their damane, but solo?

Anyway - just stumbled across this preview scene and it's fucking trippy. I really have no clue as to what's happening here or how it fits into anything. I saw a comment that it might be TAR? It's creepy as hell. It also looks like the location in the clip in the season 2 trailer where Mat is looking at the dagger.

[fionwe1987]

RJ had the sul'dam spontaneously channel in Knife of Dreams. One of the sul'dam in Mat's party thinks she's going to die and channels. The other one later channels the same weave, and not because she's afraid but because she decides she wants to be trained, too.

Why that works makes sense: the sul'dam can direct the weaves of the damane they are linked with, though not all of them can. Tuon herself doesn't rely on verbal commands when she briefly has the collar on Joline, she just takes over and tries to channel at Mat.

As we see in that scene, many sul'dam can see weaves, too, even if they can't control the weaving themselves, due to repeated exposure to channeling. They're not born with the spark, but they're just at the edge of channeling, and the books make it clear that they can make a choice to do so.

That this went thoroughly unexpended on in the last 3 books pisses me to this day. The setup was there for Tuon herself to channel at great need. 

And since many sul'dam could weave well, even if they wouldn't have gotten much strength by the time of the Last Battle, they actually could have entered into voluntary circles with damane, and been even more effective in the Last Battle. There would have been excellent tactical grounds to get rid of the a'dam and have the sul'dam accept what they are, and channel.

It's also bizarre that Ryma was not in the meeting between Egwene and Tuon. It's made clear that Tuon personally broke her, and that Ryma (or Pura, as she's called by Tuon), was very loyal to Tuon. 

How would she respond to seeing the captured Novice she met in the kennels now raised to Amyrlin? Egwene even made a point of telling Tuon she was a former damane, and it mystifies me that Sanderson didn't see the pieces being moved together for Ryma to be present there, and likely freed. 

Elaida being ignored also is stupid, but is part of the unfortunate trend of female villains ending up in lifelong slavery of one kind or the other in the books. It really isn't satisfying to see "enslaved for the rest of their very long lives" being used as just desserts for these characters. Something the show will completely ignore, I hope. I'd rather see Elaida and Galina tried and stilled/executed than what we got. 

[Gertrude]

I'd forgotten about those instances, and I missed the potential for the sul'dam to channel. To be honest, I was barely invested after the slog and was stubbornly reading to find out how it all ends. Sunk cost fallacy and all. It makes me sad, actually. I used to re-read the series over and over in the early years before a new publication and then about half-way in I stopped doing that and don't intend to re-read any of it. Kind of like Karradin said - my early book impressions are strong, but later books are foggy.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Gertrude

[karaddin]

I thought it was Suroth that "trained" Ryma not Tuon and a quick Google is only pulling up interactions with Suroth - was it definitely Tuon?

[fionwe1987]

Huh. I mixed things up. Tuon's Aes Sedai damane who she trained herself was Sheraine, a Blue, who was captured at the same time as Ryma. Ryma shows up as a damane laughing at her unnamed sul'dam's joke, in Winter's Heart, and that's it.

 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I'd forgotten about those instances, and I missed the potential for the sul'dam to channel. To be honest, I was barely invested after the slog and was stubbornly reading to find out how it all ends. Sunk cost fallacy and all. It makes me sad, actually. I used to re-read the series over and over in the early years before a new publication and then about half-way in I stopped doing that and don't intend to re-read any of it. Kind of like Karradin said - my early book impressions are strong, but later books are foggy.

Yeah there's a lot of such details spread through the slog, and later. And since not all of it made any impact on the final trilogy, it's not like we get more than a few scattered scenes like this hinting at what RJ might have done.

There was also Egwene's dream about needing to work with a Seanchan woman. That ended up being Egeanin, but it would honestly have been more interesting if it had to be Tuon, with Mat caught in the middle. 

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

I’m not a book reader but just watching this show and find it really good ! Quick question, is Min still betraying Matt or has she returned to the good side out of guilt ? It’s not clear for me. Did the dark one tell her to send Matt with rand so he could stab him ?

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

I’m not a book reader but just watching this show and find it really good ! Quick question, is Min still betraying Matt or has she returned to the good side out of guilt ? It’s not clear for me. Did the dark one tell her to send Matt with rand so he could stab him ?

The one you call the Dark One is not the Dark One, he is one of the Chosen/Forsaken. No way he knows the future, though there are people who can see glimpses of the future through dreams and visions (not like Min and so far we haven't seen anyone else display this ability) We'll see how Min acts going forward.

[SpaceChampion]

I don't think they'll have Callandor in Cairhien, but I think its possible the Aiel will sack the palace like they did the Stone of Tear in the books, and then however Rand gets to Falme (portal stone, gateway, waygate, skimming), will be going with him to fight the Seanchan.  They haven't set this up at all though.  But Judkins keeps talking about how this season is combining books 2 and 3, and I don't see how yet but this idea came to me as a good way to do that.

My rationale for the Aiel attacking the palace is that having another Damodred on the throne of Cairhien might offend them enough to stomp Barthanes.

 

Judkins answering questions on twitter now that the WGA strike is over:

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[fionwe1987]

They've changed a lot about the Power, to carry the plot. I'm not sold on all of it. That no modern Aes Sedai can knot their weaves doesn't make much sense, though it is mentioned as a rare ability earlier on, but not so later in the books.

I like that they expanded on the conflict between Moiraine and Siuan's outlook on the Dragon, but tossing Lanfear into the mix and having Siuan compel Moiraine... we'll see where all this goes, but I'm not sold on this one either. They did Siuan wrong here, I feel, though she does want to take Rand to the Tower at the start of TGH. I think a little more debate between her and Moiraine before she made up her mind would have made that scene work better. 

A broken Amyrlin... so Siuan has warning a Forsaken wants to take her down, now? She's probably going to do the right stuff which makes her better off dead, based on the books. That is, sending the girls from the Tower to Tear. That's gonna be her hopping back on the "let Rand be free train" and as in the books, that'll cause her downfall. 

The tea thing was interesting. It's clearly not doing what Ishy said it did, and I'm suspecting TAR or compulsion was involved somehow. I'd initially thought it would replace what the Finns do, or something.

Nice call out to the fact that in the books, Ishy believes he's fated to fight the Dragon again and again, but never gives us any proof. I remember speculating that Ishy was a kind of Hero of the Horn, too, and that the body swap bond between him and Rand somehow keeps going even after their deaths in any particular Age, and Ishy somehow figured this out. I'd be interested to see if they try expand on it. 

They keep taking elements from that epic Lanfear fight in Cairhein, and spreading it out. Now she's laid waste to a chunk of Cairhein.

I wonder, is she really going to die in the show at all? 

The Egwene scenes were... muted? Those dumb mouth guard gags really took me out of that training scene. 

The scene where Renna tries to sweet talk Egwene started off well, but the ending was abrupt, and Renna's tame reaction didn't seem to fit. 

 

[Arakasi]

Everything was rare early in the series. Then later on things that were ultra rare were super common. What’s the point of the Forsaken having all that experience from the age of legends if it just took one to two years to gain that same skill. The commonness of things like travelling, shielding, advanced healing, defensive weaves, etc is a big reason why the second half of the series was mediocre.

 

Edit: Also on Lanfear she didn’t die in the series either.  (at least not permanently)

Edited September 29, 2023 by Arakasi

[Corvinus85]

Where is Rand al'Thor? It doesn't have to be all of the book version of Rand, but one AS holding his shield, come on. I appreciated that he tried to solve his situation with a modicum of cunning, but we need a moment of extreme raw power from him which the show has yet to produce. 

[Gertrude]

I'm OK with the changes to the Power. It is what it is, and I tend not to like hard magic systems in general. Limits, yes, but I don't like getting bogged down in the details (like how many people can link in a circle and if a man or woman leads when this, but not this, etc.) What I did think was clumsy was that it was Lan who figured it out about tied weaves. Why would he have heard these stories and not Moiraine or Siuan?

As for Siuan's downfall - Siuan, Leane, Logain and Min are ALL in Cairhien right now. Does that mean that we're getting a coup earlier rather than later? That would give the girls a reason for not returning to the Tower and for Nyneave not to return her pocketful of rings. Honestly though, I'm not sure how I feel about her and Moirain'es parting. The montage tugged at my heart strings, but I didn't like the showdown and Moiraine didn't even try to argue her case. Does Siuan think Moiraine is a darkfriend now? She failed her mission, she 'lied' to Siuan and she left with Lanfear.

I actually love Ishy in the show. He really gives off the vibes of someone who believes what they are doing is the right thing and his gentleness is unnerving. Is this a sex thing or a murder thing? Could be either, Mat. Could be either. So the first thing that popped into my head in the whole Mat sequence was that his mom repeatedly telling him he's just like his dad could mean that Abel will really step up next season and take steps towards being the man we know he is. Nattie was the bad seed all along.

I also am not a fan of the damanae pacifiers either. I get what they were going for, but it's a huuuuuge miss for me. I liked that they could feel the shockwave in Falme. And Nyneave and Egwene are such a good pair. I like seeing it on screen more than words on a page.

As for Rand not getting his moment of glory yet, I think they are saving it for the finale. That one Aes Sedai could hold a shield I can buy because he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing yet. I will agree though, that he needs something soon. If he doesn't pull some pretty cool shit out in Falme, I will be disappointed.

For the most part, I liked where this episode went and it set things up nicely for the finale. Moiraine's knot was the major miss for me - we knew this is what it was and it would be fixed, but it was clumsy and underwhelming.

OH! Anvere stepped the fuck up. Hell yes. I'm glad she wasn't a darkfriend as well. So who exactly did she tell about Barthanes and did she include the detail about his visitor? Liandrin might have just enough time to convince the other Aes Sedai that Siuan broke Tower Law and start the coup without a replacement ready, but I think her time working as an Aes Sedai is limited and she will have to run to Lanfear rather than get involved with Moggy. (to be honest, I don't remember a whole lot of what happened to her, just that she stupidly took a shot at Moggy and missed. maybe?)

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Gertrude

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

OH! Anvere stepped the fuck up. Hell yes. I'm glad she wasn't a darkfriend as well. So who exactly did she tell about Barthanes and did she include the detail about his visitor? Liandrin might have just enough time to convince the other Aes Sedai that Siuan broke Tower Law and start the coup without a replacement ready, but I think her time working as an Aes Sedai is limited and she will have to run to Lanfear rather than get involved with Moggy. (to be honest, I don't remember a whole lot of what happened to her, just that she stupidly took a shot at Moggy and missed. maybe?)

 

Yes, I liked this too! I'm glad Annvaere had principles, here. I think if they merge her into Colavaere now, she'd make for a much much more interesting character. Kinda like her Servilia in Rome, in fact, with Rand being the obvious Caesar parallel. If that's what they do, I'd say bravo. That has a very legends fading to myth only to repeat feel to it.

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Where is Rand al'Thor? It doesn't have to be all of the book version of Rand, but one AS holding his shield, come on. I appreciated that he tried to solve his situation with a modicum of cunning, but we need a moment of extreme raw power from him which the show has yet to produce. 

I think the explanation would be Rand didn't push against the shield? That said, they could also have resolved this by having Siuan have an angreal, or sa'angreal. But that would have complicated the fight with Lanfear. Unless she gave it to Leanne for Healing, a bad mistake.

They could do stuff like this, I think, if they have time. 

2 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Everything was rare early in the series. Then later on things that were ultra rare were super common. What’s the point of the Forsaken having all that experience from the age of legends if it just took one to two years to gain that same skill. The commonness of things like travelling, shielding, advanced healing, defensive weaves, etc is a big reason why the second half of the series was mediocre.

 

Edit: Also on Lanfear she didn’t die in the series either.  (at least not permanently)

I disagree. The early series saw the One Power in more mystic mumbo jumbo terms. There's all this nonsense about the Old Blood, the Talents are all much rarer, Traveling itself functions very differently (Moiraine's description makes it seem more like how Portal Stones work). 

The Aes Sedai are just witches/wizards here, with slightly more detail to their magic system than usual.

Its as the physicist in RJ kicked in that the "magic" becomes more a metaphor for technology, and that's when WoT got distinctive and interesting to me. The story before that is great, plot wise, but the world has a very 80s feel to it. RJ retcons some of this, but has other stuff just recede into the background, and as far as I'm concerned, that choice is what got me hooked to this series.

Does all of it pay off well? No, but there's still remarkable consistency and inventiveness in there that I enjoy. Its kinda bizarre how well some of the core concepts of WoT hold up even as Physics has pushed much further ahead since RJ was writing this stuff. Its why it was the most read fantasy series at my university (we polled it, across departments, quite a few times). Its geeky and nerdy, but it holds up remarkably well under the scrutiny of some very science/social science obsessed nerds. 

Of course, some of the stuff in the background still remained mystical and nonsensical, and most of that is the gender based rules for linking. Which Sanderson already violated in the most important circle of all, Rand with Nynaeve and Moiraine. He passes control to them for taking over Callandor once Moridin is wielding it, and I'm perfectly glad that rule was ignored so Moiraine and Nynaeve didn't only serve as batteries to Rand. I *would* have liked to see them involved in weaving the final prison, too, where Rand passed control back and forth. We've seen that with other complex weaves, and I sure hope the show does something like that.

That said, I'm all good so far with the shows changes, because they're mostly keeping things reasonably consistent, which I care more about than adherence to the exact rules in the books. I do see some of these changes affecting later plots, though, so if they simply forget the rules they used here, I'll be disappointed. If they manage to pull it off with internal consistency for the show, that's good enough for me. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by fionwe1987

[karaddin]

I have absolutely no issues with Siuan being able to shield Rand at this point, he still has very little idea what he's doing and none about trying to break a shield. Especially when its very likely all set up for him to have a big showing next episode.

I also liked Lan figuring it out. He's had months hanging with Moiraine at Verin's home and its nice showing yet another way that he did pick up a lot of skills from all the years of working with her, and he's got the perfect trigger for it in wondering "why am I not suicidal?". Personally I think this is partially paying off the Stepin stuff from season 1 that everyone else hated lol, we needed to see what should happen when the bond is broken to understand that its not what we were seeing here. The Aes Sedai were all too busy not believing him when he said he wasn't suicidal to actually accept he's not, and thus realize that there's an implication there. Those scenes with Lan earlier in the season were also hammering that home - they kept treating him like he was glass and he was clearly frustrated by their not understanding. So given he's in a situation where he should be suicidal and isn't, he's also primed to notice that Moiraine should also be suicidal and also is not. That's enough for him to dig for legends from the AoL that pointed him in the right direction.

I'm also liking increasing the interactions between Ishy/Lanfear and main characters. I don't think it would work so well with the rest of the Forsaken, but Ishy is playing a long game and Lanfear is playing her own game - both of which can work with them being heavily involved with the main characters without it being a contrivance that they don't simply kill them. So putting them together can bring out some interesting dynamics and I have hopes for what we'll see between Lanfear and Moiraine.

[karaddin]

Another point I really liked - Alanna abiding by the outcome of a vote amongst her and her warders, I think it's nicely establishing how deeply she respects that relationship so it will be clear when she bonds Rand its out of perceived necessity - not that she doesn't care about his feelings. They've really put the work into both sides of that landing.

[Ran]

Isn't the inversion of weaves the thing Aes Sedai didn't know in the books, and not the knotting of them?

Edited October 2, 2023 by Ran

[Maia]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:42 AM, Corvinus85 said:

 No way he knows the future, though there are people who can see glimpses of the future through dreams and visions (not like Min and so far we haven't seen anyone else display this ability)

 

Yes, and Ishy is one of these people who get glimpses in the books, since he is a Dreamer.

 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Isn't the inversion of weaves the thing Aes Sedai didn't know in the boks, and not the knotting of ithwm?

 

Wasn't knotting known, but rare and possibly a Talent in the early books? To then become common-place by the  mid-books, which, BTW, made perfect sense unlike other power-inflations like Travelling or inverting the weaves. I am OK with it being a forgotten skill in the show, though. It never sat well with me how the 3rd-Agers were able to learn everything that the Forsaken had mastered in their multi-centuries lifetimes of channeling in a few weeks/months.

The wonder girls have no reason to go back to the White Tower when even Siuan can't be relied upon and they know for sure that the Black Ajah exists. Mat has to go with Rand to the Waste, so won't need an escort there. Maybe Elayne and Nynaeve travel to Caemlyn instead, to warn Morgase? And become involved with the Forsaken and BAs there. Elayne's absence from the WT during this season would still trigger Elaida's sacking and Gawyn's involvement in the  coup. In which, after this episode, I am more certain than ever that Siuan will get murdered or executed. And that they'll try to force her to order Moiraine back and she'll heroically refuse. It does look like Anvaere's actions must have outed Liandrin as a Darkfriend too, so she might be involved with whatever FS is going to be in Caemlyn. I am very unsure where Min could fit in, though.

On the whole, I am withholding judgement. Some of the changes worked quite well for me, others very much depend on the finale. I like how they have positioned Alanna as very sympathetic and helpful to Rand, so that her eventual betrayal hits all the harder. Also, her and Verin's involvement in his escape gives them a good reason to make themselves scarce and head to the Two Rivers. Not sure why they gave a younger Siuan  desire for simple life, rather than the one of adventure and maritime exploration, but whatever.