[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[karaddin]

24 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

The thing is that actor is a huge fan of the books and might have slipped it in to troll all of us.

I watched the scene again and it goes

1. Yasicca talking to Verin over the establishing shot as we zoom in on them with Yasicca watching as 
2. Joiya (the bald Aes Sedai that's black in the book) walks by
3. Yasicca hiding handing the Ogier map to Verin after she's passed by
4. Another shot of Joiya talking to another Aes Sedai followed immediately by a cut to
5. Alanna looking down with Maksim leaning against something while he's watching Verin as
6. Tomas departs filmed from a perspective with the camera between Alanna and Maksim with them framing the sides
7. Verin looks across at/near the camera and seems to drop her eyes slightly and see something before looking down
8. Then a wider out shot of Alanna with Maksim and Ihvon, this is the shot the screenshot is from with Maksim sliding his thumb like he's fidgeting while looking at Verin and Ihvon saying "I don't trust Verin Sedai, even if Lan does"

The fidgeting makes it deniable but the rest of it seems extremely intentional. That scene was a lot more packed with detail than I realized. It also unclear that if he is indeed making the Black Ajah symbol whether its actually for Verin for Joiya's benefit, if the latter then having Verin catch it can make her suspicious of Alanna as well.

ETA: Brook also pointed out when you take Ihvon saying he doesn't trust Verin at the same time as Maksim makes the gesture it can also fit with them somehow being aware of the gesture and setting a trap for Verin.

Edited October 4, 2023 by karaddin

[SpaceChampion]

Yes, that looks deliberate but who knows. 

Also, Maksim votes with Ihvon to follow Tomas.  Later we do see Tomas with Verin, Moiraine and Rand, and then Alanna jogs up with Maksim but no Ihvon. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[karaddin]

We don't see Ihvon but Tomas is with Verin when she's handing the Ogier map over and telling Moiraine and Rand where to go. Verin and Tomas stay with Alanna and Maksim to make sure they're not followed (this is requested by Lan rather than stated by either of the Aes Sedai) and we don't see them again after this.

We do see that Siuan is not stopped, or even seemingly delayed by them so huge question marks over what they do after they split up as far as I'm concerned.

The more of this episode I dig into the more the Daes Dae'Mar title is actually warranted. There are definitely games being played below the surface. I'm not sure exactly what the puzzle is, but I'm sure there is one.

[SpaceChampion]

Well, Ihvon isn't masked like Maksim is, so Allanna should know he's ok.

[karaddin]

The Moiraine/Siuan stuff is another one I've seen a fair bit of speculation about potentially being theater, and I don't think that works for the last of it but I do think there's more to it than just what we superficially see. The conflict at the way gate seems legitimate and I don't see Moiraine agreeing to a plan that could have very easily had Siuan being killed by Lanfear.

The interpretation that makes sense to me of those events is that

1. Siuan shows up at the waygate and sees Moiraine channeling which makes her question everything about their entire relationship because this seems very much like a lie.
2. If Moiraine is actually black, then her emotional appeals are meaningless, the entire thing is a lie and she needs to fight her
3. If she can force Moiraine to obey, then Moiraine is still constrained by the oath rod and something else is going on which means she can still trust Moiraine even if she disagrees
4. So that's what she does. Knowing it might completely destroy their relationship, she forces her to close the waygate and confirms Moiraine isn't black

So although it would look suspicious as hell for Moiraine to be entering the ways with the Dragon and Lanfear, Siuan knows that its not because she's a dark friend.

3 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Well, Ihvon isn't masked like Maksim is, so Allanna should know he's ok.

Yup agreed

[fionwe1987]

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

And after all that discussion I forgot what I actually came into the thread to post

https://reddit.com/r/WoTshow/s/PJwQIs1ecY

I'd actually forgotten that gesture was a thing so needed the explanation, I don't think I want this though lol.

Wow. That was subtle.

13 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

The thing is that actor is a huge fan of the books and might have slipped it in to troll all of us.

A good one, if so, but I'm also interested to see what's beneath the surface of that scene, so I hope there's something to it. 

[Gertrude]

15 hours ago, karaddin said:

If she can force Moiraine to obey, then Moiraine is still constrained by the oath rod and something else is going on which means she can still trust Moiraine even if she disagrees

I disagree on this point, and thus the conclusion. The oath Siuan uses to compel her was recently sworn. If Moiraine had become a darkfriend sometime before that, the oath she swore in the Tower would still be binding, even if the other ones weren't. I do think Siuan has every reason to question Moiraine's allegiance right now.

 

Also, don't make Maksim black please.   Good catch by whoever originally posted it though.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Gertrude

[Gertrude]

I saw a discussion by non-book readers with some fun speculation. One women was wondering why they called Lews/Rand the Dragon. Listening to the prophecies of Falme - bannered across the sky in fire - she wonders if Rand will turn into an actual Dragon! Very wrong, but I loved it!

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I saw a discussion by non-book readers with some fun speculation. One women was wondering why they called Lews/Rand the Dragon. Listening to the prophecies of Falme - bannered across the sky in fire - she wonders if Rand will turn into an actual Dragon! Very wrong, but I loved it!

Indeed, I mentioned this issue in another post. The show hasn't introduced the Dragon Banner. Maybe the wording of this Falme prophecy hints that the banner will show up. Could be another one of the objects in Turak's collection.

[Myrddin]

I like the "bannered across the sky in fire" being an actual burning banner flapping over the city rather than his image on the clouds. That never made sense to me. At least, I could never really picture it in a non-hokey fashion as a reader.

Does this mean the season is going to end with the city chanting "King in the North! The Dragon in the North Reborn! ! The King Dragon Reborn! The Dragon Reborn! 

[SpaceChampion]

25 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I saw a discussion by non-book readers with some fun speculation. One women was wondering why they called Lews/Rand the Dragon. Listening to the prophecies of Falme - bannered across the sky in fire - she wonders if Rand will turn into an actual Dragon! Very wrong, but I loved it!

I know who you are talking about, I watch them.  They're not even fantasy fans in general but just loving the show.  Now they're planning to go to the next WOTCon cosplaying as Lanfear and Liandrin.  Their husbands are book-fans. 

[Poobah]

4 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I know who you are talking about, I watch them.  They're not even fantasy fans in general but just loving the show.  Now they're planning to go to the next WOTCon cosplaying as Lanfear and Liandrin.  Their husbands are book-fans. 

Sounds interesting, is it a youtube show/podcast or something?

[Gertrude]

21 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Sounds interesting, is it a youtube show/podcast or something?

Yep, youtube called Tori Talks.

Here is their video discussing S1 before the premiere of S2.

[David Selig]

The Wheel Of Time Season 2 Was Completely Rewritten After One Actor’s Exit

Quote

Rafe Judkins: It was a complete rewrite of the entire season. We always wanted to tell the story in season 2 of, “Mat is a hero who doesn't think he's a hero,” and I would have loved to tell the story of the three boys on the hunt for the Horn of Valere, but we didn't get to tell that story. In TV, you can never be apologetic about the story you're telling. so [since] we couldn't do that story, we wanted to lean in fully to the story of the five of the Emond’s Field Five being separate for the first time, [with] each of them on their own path.

 

Quote

Screen Rant: Does that mean Rand making his choice at the end of season 1 was building toward keeping them apart as a result of Mat?

Rafe Judkins: Yeah. That was a big part of it; committing to this idea of all of them being separate was something we needed to do, and so we did, and I think we told really effective storylines of each of them on their own.

 

Pretty interesting info from Judkins on how Barney Harris's departure impacted the show.

Edited October 4, 2023 by David Selig

[karaddin]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I disagree on this point, and thus the conclusion. The oath Siuan uses to compel her was recently sworn. If Moiraine had become a darkfriend sometime before that, the oath she swore in the Tower would still be binding, even if the other ones weren't. I do think Siuan has every reason to question Moiraine's allegiance right now.

 

Also, don't make Maksim black please.   Good catch by whoever originally posted it though.

I did consider this but I think what I said fits the looks they are giving each other at the end. I don't think those looks fit Siuan being convinced she's dark and not feeling any regret/remorse for forcing her. Obviously that's just interpretation and it can be wrong, but I'll view the finale through that lens unless it's contradicted.

[IlyaP]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I did consider this but I think what I said fits the looks they are giving each other at the end. I don't think those looks fit Siuan being convinced she's dark and not feeling any regret/remorse for forcing her. Obviously that's just interpretation and it can be wrong, but I'll view the finale through that lens unless it's contradicted.

Also, Moiraine did just run off with one of the Forsaken, which is....something. 

[karaddin]

I think that looks terrible to every other Aes Sedai, but Siuan heard Lanfear about to kill her and be stopped by Rand, and that there's nothing any of them can do to stop Lanfear taking Rand at that point if she chooses to. I think she's pragmatic enough to think that keeping by Rand's side to protect him is understanding if she's convinced Moiraine isn't black due to the stuff I said. If she's still convinced Moiraine lied then yeah, that's not going to look good lol.

[SpaceChampion]

I don't know in the moment she's thinking logically, but rather from her emotions.  It would be nice if she had a White Ajah friend to help her through the logic afterwards.

Edited October 5, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Poobah]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:34 PM, Gertrude said:

Yep, youtube called Tori Talks.

Here is their video discussing S1 before the premiere of S2.

Thanks for the recommendation! They're really fun and interesting to listen to.

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Thanks for the recommendation! They're really fun and interesting to listen to.

Yeah, I like them because they are really just average, soccer mom type viewers who are not familiar with fantasy tropes at all.