Ran Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Via a PBS reporter, a senior Israel Defense Force official now says there is no deadline on the evacuation, as they understand it will take time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) Supposedly people do not want to evacuate to Southern Gaza because they fear they will lose their homes and won't be allowed to return, that it will be a 'second Nakba'. People currently evacuating being bombed as well... Edited October 13, 2023 by Craving Peaches Many-Faced Votary and kissdbyfire 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) Giving more time to evacuate civilians from a potential combat zone before going in is good. But, if they are still refusing to allow supplies in (this seems to be the case) that turns into a bad thing because it gives more time for starvation to kick in. I'm hoping some in Israel have realised that if they just besieged the place, they'd achieve nothing but a lot of dead Palestinian children, so if they are going to go in, they need to go in relatively quickly, define the area of operations, complete the mission and get out again with a minimum of losses and civilian casualties (good luck with that). Even if it achieves sweet FA, but just looks good, reassures the Israeli public and "sends a message" to Israel's enemies. What practically they will do is unclear, but I've seen the suggestion of making the terrorists flee so they can define anybody left behind as a Hamas combatant, or even just levelling Gaza City as a show of strength (and screw the 600,000 people who permanently live there and would need to come back and rebuild). Israel is also fortifying the northern border with Lebanon and between the Golan Heights and Syria. There's been some indications that both Hezbollah and some Syrian forces (and Iranian proxies) have moved to the border area and may attempt an attack when Israel goes into Gaza, to give them a conflict on two fronts. How hard they'll go, given that Syria is still deeply immersed in its own civil war with competing Turkish, Kurdish, Russian, US and rebel interests, remains to be seen. The big target here may be geopolitical: Israel could lose the opportunity to secure a long-term peace deal with Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations, and, far worse, lose the Arab friends (or at least non-enemies) it has right now, such as Egypt and Jordan, as well as the nations Trump got to sign on with the Abraham Accords. Hamas (and Iran) may be banking on Israel making itself a pariah state, and the west backing it to the hilt will likely trigger unrest within European countries and the US (and we've already seen that on a small scale in France). Edited October 13, 2023 by Werthead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 There are talks to open the border with Egypt, but only for foreign nationals. Israel-Hamas live: Israel tells 1.1m Palestinians to move to southern Gaza | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera Quote The United States is in discussions to open Gaza’s Rafa border crossing to foreign nationals who want to flee, a senior US official has said. “That is also something we discussed with Israel, something we continue to discuss with Egypt – the importance of the Rafah crossing being open for American citizens and for foreign nationals of other countries who want to leave and have the right to leave,” the official said. Guess the innocent Palestinians don't have a right to leave then. And no talk of aid getting in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Supposedly people do not want to evacuate to Southern Gaza because they fear they will lose their homes and won't be allowed to return, that it will be a 'second Nakba'. People currently evacuating being bombed as well... There’s also reporting that Hamas is telling people not to evacuate, that this is a ploy to confuse people and eat away at their cohesion. Because of course the nasty pieces of shite are more than willing to use their own people like this. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/israel-hamas-war-latest-gaza-residents-told-move-ground-assault Craving Peaches and Many-Faced Votary 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin et al. Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 7 hours ago, GrimTuesday said: You bring up that Hamas' charter calls for the eradication of Israel, but what you ignore is they have neither the popular support nor the material support to make that happen. Who gives a shit if they can't do it? Their intent is what matters. Quote Of course, the more you abuse, humiliate, and oppress the Palestinians you only build up their credibility and swell their ranks. They also abuse Palestinians. Stop glossing over that. 3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I don't understand. How is it 'pivoting' to say you have sympathy for the innocent people in Gaza too? Are we only allowed to express sympathy for Israelis, and not those innocents trapped in Gaza as well? We all have sympathy for the innocent people in Gaza. The pivot is saying you feel for the Israelis who were attacked and then immediately going after the Israeli government and spend a disproportionate amount of time doing so while not spending anywhere near as much time addressing Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: There’s also reporting that Hamas is telling people not to evacuate, that this is a ploy to confuse people and eat away at their cohesion. Because of course the nasty pieces of shite are more than willing to use their own people like this. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/israel-hamas-war-latest-gaza-residents-told-move-ground-assault Yeah, Hamas said it was propaganda... Hopefully no one believes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: . . The pivot is saying you feel for the Israelis who were attacked and then immediately going after the Israeli government and spend a disproportionate amount of time doing so while not spending anywhere near as much time addressing Hamas. Everybody already knows Hamas are fucking awful though, does it need to be said in every post? While the Israeli government has backing worldwide so yeah it makes total sense to spend more time addressing their behaviours that people may not know about. Edited October 13, 2023 by lessthanluke Crixus, Many-Faced Votary and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin et al. Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, lessthanluke said: Everybody already knows Hamas are fucking awful though, does it need to be said in every post? While the Israeli government has backing worldwide so yeah it makes total sense to spend more time addressing their behaviours that people may not know about. Everyone knows the current Israeli government sucks too. What makes no sense is spending so much time criticizing the people that were attacked and rationalizing why they were attacked. Ran and Jace, Extat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Everyone knows the current Israeli government sucks too. What makes no sense is spending so much time criticizing the people that were attacked and rationalizing why they were attacked. The criticism is that they are reacting to the horror and terror and murder they endured last weekend with horror and terror and murder of their own. I had no issues voicing my mind about how dreadfully the USA reacted after 9/11, and I have ZERO issues criticizing Israel now. Unfortunately, im just a random voice on the internet, with zero power. All I can do is watch this shit-show and post my opinion about it. Craving Peaches, Rippounet, Crixus and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin et al. Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, Relic said: The criticism is that they are reacting to the horror and terror and murder they endured last weekend with horror and terror and murder of their own. I had no issues voicing my mind about how dreadfully the USA reacted after 9/11, and I have ZERO issues criticizing Israel now. Then talk more about how Hamas wanted that to happen to their own people. They knew Israel would overreact after they committed the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust. Hamas literally wants Palestinians to die because they think it benefits them. Imagine a world where since 2005 they had tried to help people in Gaza. Things would be so much better for everyone living there. But they haven't, they're a terrorist group dedicated to killing Jews and will kill the people they're suppose to protect to do it. Focus on the real problem. Jace, Extat, Ran, Heartofice and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Focus on the real problem. You can't just say that and hand-wave the atrocities being committed in Gaza. We COULD have focused on what you just said had Israel reacted differently, but its impossible to focus on that while a fucking MILLION PEOPLE are facing death. Sorry. This is exactly how the USA went wrong post 9/11. It squandered all of its goodwill with the dumbshit slaughter is enacted in the name of justice afterwards. Edit - Israel had an opportunity to work with regional nations that it was normalizing relations with to figure out a different way to try and end Hamas. Instead those countries are now looking at Israel and Gaza and are probably going to distance themselves once again. Edited October 13, 2023 by Relic Craving Peaches, dbergkvist, lessthanluke and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I find it weird that on one hand some people claim that "this is what Hamas wanted" and on the other hand they are supporting doing exactly what Hamas wanted. TheKitttenGuard, dbergkvist, Craving Peaches and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin et al. Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Relic said: You can't just say that and hand-wave the atrocities being committed in Gaza. We COULD have focused on what you just said had Israel reacted differently, but its impossible to focus on that while a fucking MILLION PEOPLE are facing death. Sorry. But why are they being committed? Because Hamas wanted them to happen. They literally committed a terrorist attack, killing thousands, with the hope their people would be brutalized. Quote This is exactly how the USA went wrong post 9/11. It squandered all of its goodwill with the dumbshit slaughter is enacted in the name of justice afterwards. The situations are not comparable, but I agree the US badly fucked up their response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Just now, Tywin et al. said: But why are they being committed? Because Hamas wanted them to happen. They literally committed a terrorist attack, killing thousands, with the hope their people would be brutalized. So why give them what they want?? What is slaughtering civilians going to accomplish? Crixus, Many-Faced Votary and dbergkvist 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Relic said: . It squandered all of its goodwill with the dumbshit slaughter is enacted in the name of justice afterwards. The invasion of Afghanistan to attack the Taliban and Al-Qaeda was well-supported around the world. It was Iraq, afterward, that lost the good will of the world, and the botch of starry-eyed nation-building in Afghanistan. I know we discussed this before, but the US essentially won in Afghanistan within the first two years, with the Taliban desperately trying to sue for peace and offering up Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda... but the Bush administration was already turning its gaze to Iraq and attempting to remake the whole Middle East. That was the fuck up. (FWIW, Afghanistan was sensible, but even back then I argued strenuously against the attack against Iraq.) I think most of the world has agreed that Israel has a right to defend itself, and that Hamas legitimately should face reprisals so long as Israel shows due care in how it approaches it. We'll have to see how things proceed. Edited October 13, 2023 by Ran Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin et al. Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Relic said: So why give them what they want?? What is slaughtering civilians going to accomplish? One side gives the other a heads up they're going to attack. The other sneak attacks hoping to maximize the damage. Don't compare the two. And what would you like Israel to do? Get attacked and do nothing? Jace, Extat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Everyone knows the current Israeli government sucks too. Do they? 59 minutes ago, lessthanluke said: Everybody already knows Hamas are fucking awful though, I wouldn’t say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: One side gives the other a heads up they're going to attack. How many people do you think can realistically evaluate Gaza in 24 hours? Keep in mind near half of Gaza are children and we’re talking millions of people. Many-Faced Votary and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: One side gives the other a heads up they're going to attack. The other sneak attacks hoping to maximize the damage. Don't compare the two. And what would you like Israel to do? Get attacked and do nothing? Heads up or not, the end result is the same. Civilians dying. Smarter people than I can maybe give you an answer to your question. Wack-a-hamas with rockets in a dense urban environment surely isn't the answer, and just makes Israel look bad to everyone but staunch supporters and Neocons. Again, I have to ask. Why give Hamas what it wants? Look, I get it. I've never been shot at, but I watched the towers come down from my roof in Brooklyn. I was traumatized for months. Maybe still am. But this is not the right response. This will only lead to more blood. Already one terror attack in France today. Edited October 13, 2023 by Relic dbergkvist and Many-Faced Votary 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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