fionwe1987 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) Someone mentioned boots on the ground, but that is obviously only a technical limitation in the definition of occupation. Drones patrolling in the air that can select targets on the ground (with varying levels of accuracy) surely count as occupation? Gaza is also not allowed to build an airport, and it's airspace is fully under Israeli control as well. Edited October 16, 2023 by fionwe1987 Zorral, dbergkvist, Many-Faced Votary and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Altherion said: It's going to be bad. With the latest bombings, there will be tens of thousands willing to use the weapons provided by Hamas. The questions become how long they have prepared for this, and how many weapons they have stockpiled. I was wrong. Going in means war because of the cold logic of escalation. All Hamas has to do is to make sure any civilian willing to take arms can get one for the coming weeks, and the operation becomes an open-ended bloodbath. No wonder Netanyahu is losing support: it was absolutely crucial that the IDF would never be in a situation where it just had to go in, that was always the number one thing he just wasn't allowed to fuck up. Padraig and Many-Faced Votary 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 How I'm doing JONATHAN M. KATZ OCT 13 https://theracket.news/p/how-im-doing? Quote In the days since the brutal attack on Israeli civilians by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, I’ve had a lot of friends and neighbors reach out to me to show their support. They’ve been kind and unassuming, often doing the thing we know to do these days and not even asking for a reply. But I feel like I owe it to myself to come up with something more personal to say about all of this, which I’m going to do below. Before I do, if you haven’t yet, please read the longer historical piece I wrote earlier this week. It’s got my much more reported out, research-driven take on the hundred-year context behind both the attacks an Israeli response that now appears to be moving toward genocide .... The iron wall failed JONATHAN M. KATZ OCT 11, 2023 https://theracket.news/p/the-iron-wall-failed? Quote There has been so much written and said about Hamas’ attack on Israel and the steadily escalating war on Gaza (some good, some really dumb) that it feels almost gratuitous to weigh in on the most recent events. So I’m going to step back for a second and start with some lesser-known history that might shed some light on both the ever-worsening situation in the Levant, and perhaps on politics elsewhere as well. You can start the history of Israel and Palestine at almost any time, but this story starts in 1923. The British Empire had just been granted control over Palestine by the League of Nations, in the aftermath of World War I; His Majesty’s Government had promised to create a “national home for the Jewish people” somewhere in that expanse. It also pledged “that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.” There was a contradiction there, and that contradiction sparked violence, including a series of deadly riots by Arabs and Jews. .... Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 The WHO appears to have confirmed the damage to hospitals was due in part to targeting, not just accidental bombing. Many-Faced Votary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said: Drones patrolling in the air that can select targets on the ground (with varying levels of accuracy) surely count as occupation? Then the US "occupies" Yemen and Pakistan, Ukraine "occupies" Russia, Hamas "occupies" Israel (they have used targetted drone attacks themselves!)... Occupation means taking control of a territory. You become the law and administrator. You may pass that task on to a provisional government who is beholden to you and depends on your support and the protection of your troops, but ultimately you are the power that controls the place. Israel has chosen to deliberately not be the law or governance of Gaza, leaving it to the Palestinians. The are no settlers there. There are no troops there (well, until now). I can see how this caused people to howl with outrage at some sort of alleged loophole in the laws of war, but genuinely if you fuck off from a place and leave it alone and take all of your civilians out of there and you'll have to go to war to get back in to take charge of it again, it is no longer yours. Israel does not lay claim to Gaza as its sovereign territory, and hasn't at least as of the Oslo Accords (probably earlier). The West Bank is illegally occupied by Israel, due to its settlers and the internal controls Israel puts on free movement within the West Bank. Gaza is not occupied by Israel, there are no settlers, Gazans move around inside Gaza according to whatever rules Hamas puts in place. Edited October 16, 2023 by Ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Quote There is “currently no truce and humanitarian aid in Gaza in exchange for getting foreigners out”, a statement from Israeli PM Netanyahu’s office has said. Israel-Hamas war live: 1,000 missing under rubble of bombed Gaza buildings | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera Israel Gaza live news: Hopes Gaza-Egypt crossing could reopen after Blinken talks - BBC News Many-Faced Votary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) UN says last reserves of fuel for hospitals in Gaza are going to run out in a few hours, according to Al Jazeera. Edited October 16, 2023 by Craving Peaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Also, several Israeli ministers, including the Minister for Energy, oppose lifting the blockade. Quote “I strongly oppose the opening of the blockade and the introduction of goods into Gaza on humanitarian grounds,” Energy Minister Israel Katz said on X. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Apparently no water has even reached South Gaza... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/15/israel-hamas-war-live-gaza-hospitals-fuel-to-last-24-more-hours-un-says dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Also, several Israeli ministers, including the Minister for Energy, oppose lifting the blockade. Why? German newspapers say the Israeli do not open the blockade because of weapons smuggling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ran said: Then the US "occupies" Yemen and Pakistan, Ukraine "occupies" Russia, Hamas "occupies" Israel (they have used targetted drone attacks themselves!)... No, these are not analogous situations. Israel has complete control over Gaza airspace. That is not true in any of the other cases. 7 hours ago, Ran said: Edited October 16, 2023 by fionwe1987 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Netanyahu is an absolute megalomaniac and war criminal, he's not only genociding Gaza but it going to send thousands of Israeli soldiers to their deaths if they launch a ground assault. Craving Peaches, dbergkvist and kissdbyfire 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, Darryk said: Netanyahu is an absolute megalomaniac and war criminal, he's not only genociding Gaza but it going to send thousands of Israeli soldiers to their deaths if they launch a ground assault. Yeah, this asshole needs to go, immediately. Pretty insane that all of this is happening without him being held accountable for allowing such a huge lapse of security to occur on his watch. Crixus, dbergkvist and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Relic said: eah, this asshole needs to go, immediately. Most Israelis seem to agree, but suffice it to say that the political situation is so fragile that if he resigned immediately it would throw the government into complete chaos. So most seem to say he should go after the conclusion of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 I assume the Israeli people are either too fearful and saddened or too enraged at Hamas to go out in the streets and protest against the government. The whole thing about the judiciary is on the back burner now. Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Ran said: So most seem to say he should go after the conclusion of the war. The cynical view of this is that Bibi is aware of that, and will plunge the country into a prolonged conflict while trying to consolidate power. Corvinus85 and Crixus 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Well, if Israel does not go into Gaza and start a ground war, in which there will be thousands of casualties on both sides, exactly how do all of you imagine Hamas will be gotten rid of? Everyone here seems to agree Hamas does terrible things and doesn't care about the residents of Gaza, their political aims being far more important. That's no great surprise, every violent political movement in history has dismissed the deaths of innocents, neutrals, allies, and the opposition, and their own followers, as a necessary evil. Sometimes they even claim to be sad about it. See "necessary evil". Everyone here also seems to agree the political leadership in Israel has swung too far to the right and become too extreme, and like Hamas, has to go. And just how do you think that's going to happen? Coup d'etat? A snap election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said: Well, if Israel does not go into Gaza and start a ground war, in which there will be thousands of casualties on both sides, exactly how do all of you imagine Hamas will be gotten rid of? I think you're right. And militarily speaking, I think Israel doesn't want to bring troops into perhaps the most densely populated area in the world without trying to force a good deal of the populace to leave, which might explain one of their motives in turning everything off in Northern Gaza. Because for their troops everyone they encounter is going to be a potential threat/target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: Well, if Israel does not go into Gaza and start a ground war, in which there will be thousands of casualties on both sides, exactly how do all of you imagine Hamas will be gotten rid of? Well personally I'd rather call a ceasefire and negotiate with Hamas to get the hostages back. The Israeli public are baying for Hamas blood after the pogroms but a leader has to be rational and avoid giving into bloodlust. Currently the Israeli government are just giving Hamas what they want anyway; where's the victory in that? As for how to get rid of Netanyahu, we just have to hope he gets voted out or arrested for corruption. The bad news is that, according to historian Benny Morris. secular Jews have about 2 or 3 children per family while religious Jews have about 7 or 8 children per family, so the far-right religious Jews are gradually gaining more voting power. Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, Darryk said: Well personally I'd rather call a ceasefire and negotiate with Hamas to get the hostages back. This. I mean, what do they expect will happen to the hostages if they launch a ground attack? I honestly can’t wrap my head around this… I don’t see any option but a guaranteed death sentence. Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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