Israel - Hamas War IX

[Conflicting Thought]

20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are hostage taking and killing civilians at a music festival is within the ambient of “By any means necessary”?

No, i said that because the person i was responding to said that about israel and hamas, that israel should take out hamas by any means necessary. Do you agree with that? That hamas must be taken out by any means necessary?

[Zorral]

29 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No longer surprised at how people can deny the atrocities of the Holocaust considering how supposedly "normal" people have defaulted to skepticism and denial of Hamas' atrocities since the week they were committed.

Who here has denied the Holocaust?

Yes, exactly nobody.

No more than anyone here denies the colonies and the US committed in many ways ethnic cleansing and genocide on Native Americans, and committed slavery.  Nor do we say these atrocities were right and necessary.

We do admit that it is easy for us to take this stance on the theft of Native lands and their genocides, and disapprove of slavery because that was then and we are now, not then.

What the heck are you demanding?  That we go, "Yay Bibi! Go go go, keep on killin' and committing human atrocities because that's the right thing to do!" ?

Edited November 12, 2023 by Zorral

[kissdbyfire]

And who here has said Jews shouldn't be in Israel? Again, no one. 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

So...you didn't see these pictures then. But you're okay making other people look them up to prove your point for you?

Interesting.

I didn't make anybody do anything.  There is no reason for me to disbelieve Warren.  He said he thought he could view it and maintain a certain level of calm.  But he came out and started weeping and couldn't stop.  That would be me.  I've given you a source which seemed to be your initial complaint.  You haven't provided anything reliable to counter it.  Just apparently that didn't happen.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

you care about dead babies do you, how about dead palestinain babies, mutilated, burned, crushed, etc...havent see you comment about how those babies deserve justice and how we should do everything in our power to stop that. By any means necessary

Two wrongs don't make a right.  I blame Hamas for visiting this war on Palestine.  They broke the ceasefire.  They always do once they have regrouped and re-armed.  Does Hamas care about dead babies, Palestinian and otherwise?  No they don't. For those of us who are not in the direct line of fire; it's incumbent on us to bear witness both in Palestine and Isreal.  I can't see anything getting better for Palestinians until Hamas is removed.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

23 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

No, i said that because the person i was responding to said that about israel and hamas, that israel should take out hamas by any means necessary. Do you agree with that? That hamas must be taken out by any means necessary?

No.  I do not agree Hamas should be taken out “by any means necessary”.  I believe Likhud and Hamas love each other.  That they each gain power from the other.  

I’d like to see all Likhud and Hamas members locked in a giant room with each other so they can take each other down.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Only people who believe the worst of Israel Netanyahu genuinely believed they were just going to starve to death hundreds of thousands.

Little fix here.

And yes, I totally believed that Israel under Netanyahu would starve hundreds of thousands. In fact it's really odd to claim that this was not the case when Israel barely did anything to get the humanitarian aid through and arguably did much to prevent it from getting through.

It's almost as if you, and a handful of others, are constantly trying to rewrite the narrative in Israel's favor. Which I'm oddly grateful for tbh, on some level, while being mildly annoyed, on another.
As I said, it's a fucked up timeline.

On 11/11/2023 at 4:07 PM, Ran said:

Murder is bad.
Lawful warfare is not murder.

There was very little that was "lawful" about the Israeli operation in the past month.

I know you will keep denying it, but again, there's no real debate about it among international law experts. The ones who try to deny it are just spinning things as best they can. They are politicians more than lawyers, propaganda agents.

But like the question of starvation, Israel has started doing the bare minimum, providing just enough ammunition to its defenders to rewrite the narrative and pretend it was always virtuous and would never, oh never, deliberately kill thousands of Palestinians.
Just like no one would ever, oh ever, start condoning that.

24 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Also, as much as the Hamas attack makes clear Jews can still be killed in Israel, most Jews I've talked to still feel a hell of a lot safer in Israel than among the unhinged vitriol and hatred in the diaspora. Antizionists who don't want Jews in Israel/Palestine need to consider how unsafe they are making life for Jews in the diaspora.

Or perhaps, if Israel wasn't continuously violating international law, Jews in the diaspora would barely be facing any vitriol and hatred at this point in time.
Perhaps if Netanyahu's first reaction after October 7th hadn't been retaliation, the entire world would have sympathised with Jews, and that sympathy could have been used constructively.

I want my identity to be defined by genuine belief, not birth. There's one type of zionism I want to believe in, and I think the world could like it, but it's not the one in power right now. And I don't think that's on the antizionists, yeah?
 

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  I do not agree Hamas should be taken out “by any means necessary”.  I believe Likhud and Hamas love each other.  That they each gain power from the other.  

I’d like to see all Likhud and Hamas members locked in a giant room with each other so they can take each other down.

we agree on that

Edited November 13, 2023 by Conflicting Thought

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

But like the question of starvation, Israel has started doing the bare minimum, providing just enough ammunition to its defenders to rewrite the narrative and pretend it was always virtuous and would never, oh never, deliberately kill thousands of Palestinians.
Just like no one would ever, oh ever, start condoning that.

It's happening already. I mean, Tony Fucking Blair. 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Or perhaps, if Israel wasn't continuously violating international law, Jews in the diaspora would barely be facing any vitriol and hatred at this point in time.
Perhaps if Netanyahu's first reaction after October 7th hadn't been retaliation, the entire world would have sympathised with Jews, and that sympathy could have been used constructively.

Ripp… you know I love you man… but that sounds far too much like apologia for the anti-semitic vitriol I’m seeing fly from the left and the right.

Please tell me that isn’t what this is.

[Altherion]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

With all due respect, how are you any more qualified than Relic on the matter of urban warfare? Are you in the military? Have you studied urban warfare?

I have studied the history of 20th century urban warfare, but mainly, I don't comment on events I have no information on or quote people talking about these events unless these people are experts in this (such experts make up only a very small fraction of those commenting -- random international law people who have no idea what is happening on the ground don't count).

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And who here has said Jews shouldn't be in Israel? Again, no one. 

 

Actually a few people have said Israel should have never existed in the first place and/or that there shouldn't be a majority Jewish state, both effectively meaning Jews shouldn't be there. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Actually a few people have said Israel should have never existed in the first place and/or that there shouldn't be a majority Jewish state, both effectively meaning Jews shouldn't be there. 

Here, in one of the iterations of this thread? I didn't see anyone say that, but I may have missed a few posts.

I definitely do not agree w/ that. 

[TrueMetis]

I mean I've said the creation of Israel was a mistake, though not here IIRC. I feel the same way about the US and Canada, but now that they exist destroying them would do more harm than good. I've also stated that I think ethnostates are bad actually. Didn't realize that was so controversial.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here, in one of the iterations of this thread? I didn't see anyone say that, but I may have missed a few posts.

I definitely do not agree w/ that. 

Yep, and in previous ones before this conflict.

5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I mean I've said the creation of Israel was a mistake, though not here IIRC. I feel the same way about the US and Canada, but now that they exist destroying them would do more harm than good. I've also stated that I think ethnostates are bad actually. Didn't realize that was so controversial.

And here's a good example. Countries are generally ethnostates, yet Israel gets shit on more than others for being one. Nobody complains about Japan being an ethnostate with much higher barriers. The two largest countries in the world are ethnostates and nobody cares. Much of Europe is as well. But this tiny little country constantly gets slammed for being an ethnostate. Why? 

Furthermore, by saying Israel is uniquely an ethnostate the suggestion is that it needs to end and in its place will be...a Palestinian ethnostate, one which will very likely try to remove as many Jews as possible. But who cares right? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I mean I've said the creation of Israel was a mistake, though not here IIRC. I feel the same way about the US and Canada, but now that they exist destroying them would do more harm than good. I've also stated that I think ethnostates are bad actually. Didn't realize that was so controversial.

So, do you understand why Israel was created in the wake of WWII and what happened to Jews seeking to flee the Nazi’s prior to the start of the war?

[TrueMetis]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yep, and in previous ones before this conflict.

And here's a good example. Countries are generally ethnostates, yet Israel gets shit on more than others for being one. Nobody complains about Japan being an ethnostate with much higher barriers. The two largest countries in the world are ethnostates and nobody cares. Much of Europe is as well. But this tiny little country constantly gets slammed for being an ethnostate. Why? 

Furthermore, by saying Israel is uniquely an ethnostate the suggestion is that it needs to end and in its place will be...a Palestinian ethnostate, one which will very likely try to remove as many Jews as possible. But who cares right? 

1) No, and 2) they shouldn't be when they are. Unless we are using very different definition of ethnostate.

Like if you don't think that China doesn't get shit for its policy of Han domination, than I don't know what to tell you. China is not and cannot be an ethnostate unless they commit massive amounts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Which they are in fact trying to do. IDK I think that's bad. Other apparently disagree.

The very idea that if Israel is not an ethnostate than this requires a Palestinian ethnostate is clearly nonsense, but it is very telling about you're position. Because if a Palestinian ethnostate requires ethnic cleansing, and you're right it would that's why they're bad, then so to does a Jewish one, one which will very likely try to remove as many Jews as possible. But who cares right?

30 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So, do you understand why Israel was created in the wake of WWII and what happened to Jews seeking to flee the Nazi’s prior to the start of the war?

We got shown that an obsession with ethnic homogeneity is bad actually? Was what happened to the fleeing Jews not bad precisely because it's an example of what Israel is doing now?

 

 

If ethnostates are the norm, if ethnostates are acceptable, the ethnic cleansing is fine, genocide is just the way of the world. And if you people really believe that, then get the fuck out of here and go back to Europe.

Edited November 13, 2023 by TrueMetis

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

We got shown that an obsession with ethnic homogeneity is bad actually? Was what happened to the fleeing Jews not bad precisely because it's an example of what Israel is doing now?

If ethnostates are the norm, if ethnostates are acceptable, the ethnic cleansing is fine, genocide is just the way of the world. And if you people really believe that, then get the fuck out of here and go back to Europe.

There was nowhere for Jews to flee the Nazi’s.  Almost every Nation-State rejected Jewish refugees.  As such… allowing a State for the Jewish people made a certain amount of sense.  And before you claim Israel is a purely Apartheid state do you think a majority of Israeli Arabs, Muslim and Christian, would agree with your assessment.

Likhud sucks.  Their policy toward the West Bank a Jewish settlers is Apartheid.  But that isn’t all Israelis and isn’t even everyone in the Israeli Government or the IDF.

So, while I understand what you are driving at I don’t believe an attempt to caricature Israel as a pack of mustache twirling villians is particularly helpful.  Protesters who are defending Hamas and damning all Jews are an embarrassment to themselves and they shame people who genuinely care about the Palestinian people.

ETA:

If Gaza and the West Bank were just incorporated into Israel and all Palestinians were made full citizens of the State of Israel… do you think that area, as a majority Arab Muslim State would respect the rights of Jews to remain and worship as they pleased?

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[TrueMetis]

No Scot, after my rant against ethnostates I definitely think it would be fine as long as it was a different group, that's absolutely what I was getting at.

GFYS.

[House Balstroko]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

 

Quote

 

Or perhaps, if Israel wasn't continuously violating international law, Jews in the diaspora would barely be facing any vitriol and hatred at this point in time.
Perhaps if Netanyahu's first reaction after October 7th hadn't been retaliation, the entire world would have sympathised with Jews, and that sympathy could have been used constructively.

I want my identity to be defined by genuine belief, not birth. There's one type of zionism I want to believe in, and I think the world could like it, but it's not the one in power right now. And I don't think that's on the antizionists, yeah?

 

 

This part I can’t agree on. The very fact that Jews are disproportionately targeted amongst the diaspora, suggests that the problem far exceeds the current situation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 
 

Id say that there are a number of factors affecting it.

1) Among Muslim religious zealots, a belief that Israel is occupying the Holy Land.

2) Among Christian religious zealots, a general dislike of Jews going back millennia.

3) Among left-wing extremists who dislike the West, a belief that Israel is a settler nation forcefully occupying and displacing the native population.