Videogames: All Valves on Deck

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Been playing RPGs for 15 years guys and I haven’t replayed any of them a third time like I’m gonna do with BG3 now( gonna start my 3rd playthrough soon). Infact I’ve only played 4 RPGs even a second time - Kotor, Mass effect , Skyrim and Witcher 3. I think that’s proof enough for me. 

[Durckad]

10 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

BG3 is not just game of 2023 but also the best RPG ever made from a genre perspective (TW3 has better writing overall tho) 

Disagree. Very strongly.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

7 minutes ago, Durckad said:

Disagree. Very strongly.

Which is that game then, in your opinion? Pls don’t say BG1/2 or DAO….

[polishgenius]

I don't know what the best RPG ever is*, but I really should get back and play Disco Elysium properly.


Also maybe one day I'll finally get back to, restart and then finish Planescape: Torment.





*Chrono Trigger

Edited April 11 by polishgenius

[Darryk]

10 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

BG3 is not just game of 2023 but also the best RPG ever made from a genre perspective (TW3 has better writing overall tho) 

IMO it's not even the best Baldurs Gate game but each to their own etc

[IlyaP]

There is no best rpg. Every game and studio builds off what came before, and is in a dialogue with its contemporary audience, seeking to experiment and evolve based on existing technologies. 

There is no best in art. There are instead works that lasted the test of time. Something can be insanely popular In The Moment but be forgotten over time. Not many remember Gorasul but we remember Planescape, for example.

Recency Bias as Ran said is correct, as is our blinkered cognitive bias wherein we forget our personal yardstick for measurement is universally correct and applicable to others, who have different tastes and expectations.

There's no best crpg, basically. There's no virtue or point in chasing such elusive clickbaity designations when art by its own nature is a subjective and deeply personal experience. You might like Mark Rothko, but his "classic" paintings still leave me cold.

[Kalbear]

Replayability is a very odd metric to gauge how great a RPG is. If you're going to go that way I'd say that Skyrim is going to beat everything by a large order of magnitude given the years of people's lives that it has taken and how it remains highly played 10 years after the fact. I've only played every Deus Ex once and I'd say that's way better that BG3. I'd say Cyberpunk was a significantly better RPG too on a lot of levels, especially now that it's been so heavily fixed. 

I will say that BG3 has set a very high bar for acting in an RPG. And don't get me wrong, I like it a whole lot and think it's great - but there's a lot of other things to gauge it on than the incredible voice acting and branching choices. 

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Cmon guys I really enjoyed Cyberpunk but it’s barely an RPG, BG3 beats the hell out of it as an RPG. I never said BG3 is the best game ever, personally I think the writing in CP2077 and The Witcher 3 is better.

I said as an RPG it’s best in terms of what it’s genre is trying to achieve and what it means- roleplaying.

[Rhom]

9 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Cmon guys I really enjoyed Cyberpunk but it’s barely an RPG, BG3 beats the hell out of it as an RPG. I never said BG3 is the best game ever, personally I think the writing in CP2077 and The Witcher 3 is better.

I said as an RPG it’s best in terms of what it’s genre is trying to achieve and what it means- roleplaying.

That leads into the question of "What is a roleplaying game?"

You don't think you're "roleplaying" as V?  Do you need swords and elves to roleplay?  Is it just stat management and choosing skills?  Is it a story that responds to choices?

[Fez]

BG3 is pretty on-rails, so how much do you actually roleplay? You can certainly skip a lot of content, but you don't actually have a ton of choices besides whether to do a quest or not. There's a lot of gameplay options of how to complete the quests that you do, but the end result is generally the same. The one big exception is how the Druid's Grove resolves in Act 1, where there are numerous branching options. However, even there the outcome basically boils down to whether you have access to the Tieflings in Act 2 or not (and Minthara's fate). There's not really a true "evil path" through the game, just a good path and a good path with less content. Which means, it comes down to how you define roleplaying.

A game like Disco Elysium blows BG3 out of the water in terms of truly playing a character that can take different options through the game.

A game like Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous beats BG3 in terms of character build roleplaying.

A game like The Witcher 3 or the Mass Effect trilogy beats BG3 in terms of playing as a defined character going through a set narrative.

A game like Cyberpunk 2077 beats BG3 in terms of the mechanical expression of gameplay (i.e., all the different ways you can resolve combat encounters).

Don't get me wrong, I love BG3. But I don't think it is best in category for any of the ways you can define roleplaying. It's a very good RPG in many different ways, and it may be the actual best ever in cinematic quality, but its hard for me to see how its the best "in terms of what it's genre is trying to achieve".

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Cmon guys I really enjoyed Cyberpunk but it’s barely an RPG, BG3 beats the hell out of it as an RPG. I never said BG3 is the best game ever, personally I think the writing in CP2077 and The Witcher 3 is better.

I said as an RPG it’s best in terms of what it’s genre is trying to achieve and what it means- roleplaying.

And I don't see how Cyberpunk doesn't qualify. You pick how you advance your character, you have a lot of choices in what you do in quests, you have choices in who you pursue romantically, you have consequences on your decisions and branching storylines, optional quests and lots of emergent gameplay. How is it not an RPG? It's certainly more of an RPG than Mass Effect. 

I guess if you decide things like CP2077 aren't RPGs then it's really easy to decide that BG3 is the best RPG; by your imagined bullshit criteria it might actually be the only RPG in existence. 

[Durckad]

1 hour ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Which is that game then, in your opinion? Pls don’t say BG1/2 or DAO….

Well hate to disappoint you, but yes, I do think BG2 is better. Much better than B3. It's much more groundbreaking, better pacing, less linear, absolutely tons of optional side content. It's a classic game for a reason, IMO.

BG1 and BG3 are on similar levels for me, though I think, "objectively" BG3 is probably a better game, but BG1 has a lot of nostalgia for me. Both are pretty flawed in different ways, but still quite good or great games in their own right.

I don't think DAO really holds up well for me at all. IMO YMMV. That said I do think it's character and narrative choices are almost on par with BG3's and its roster of side characters is incredibly strong as well.

Also other games I would argue are "better" RPG's:

Planescape: Torment

Chrono Trigger

Final Fantasy VI

Deus Ex

Mass Effect 2

BG3's strength, to me, comes down that it does a lot of already established things fairly well but doesn't really excel at any of them and doesn't really do anything new. It's a very good game, but greatest RPG? That's a pretty high bar to clear.

[Clueless Northman]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I don't know what the best RPG ever is

Planescape: Torment.

The genius spoke the truth
Though I have to add BG2 comes close. Heck, I'd rank Morrowind quite high, though it has its flaws. And of course, that's because I'm always torn and reluctant to consider Deus Ex as a genuine RPG; well, let's say an action RPG, and then it'll be in the top 5.

I'm also with Fez in that Disco Elysium has an amazing degree of roleplaying. It'll be hard to beat - specially since the studio seems to have been quite gutted :/

[Kalbear]

I guess for me if you are going to count Skyrim or Morrowind as RPGs then Deus Ex and Cyberpunk obviously also qualify without any special 'action' part associated with it. 

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Durckad said:

Chrono Trigger

I know it's a JRPG. I know nothing else about it, other than the fact that it's a game from 1995 that appears on multiple and relatively recent "greatest RPGs of all time" lists, which is pretty remarkable.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

So I’m accused of having recency bias, dare I say you guys who are naming all these decades old ancient RPGs are suffering from rose tinted nostalgia glasses ? 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Ultima IV in the 80’s was pretty cool. You had to be good, so stealing, lying and killing was frowned on.

you also end up with thr Skull of Mondain which was basically god mode - onky thing it coukdnt kill was Lord British. But using it wiped out your virtue progress

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

If we are talking recent RPGs that are better than BG3 I too would like to nominate Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous even if it is far less friendly towards people not familiar with the system. It's feels more similar to BG1&2

Edited April 11 by ASOIAFrelatedusername

[Durckad]

10 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

So I’m accused of having recency bias, dare I say you guys who are naming all these decades old ancient RPGs are suffering from rose tinted nostalgia glasses ? 

I mean, it's certainly possible, but I have replayed all of them (except for, ironically, Mass Effect 2) and they all hold up fairly well, IMO

But, does being newer make something automatically better?

[Fez]

Chrono Trigger is a lot of fun, but I'd certainly agree that its been surpassed by a number of games since; and mostly retains it's place on a lot of lists simply from how great it was comparatively at the time.

There are some '90s RPGs that have better writing than most games even today (e.g., Planescape Torment) but are often janky in the actual gameplay. The only '90s RPG that I think completely stands the test of time is Final Fantasy Tactics, which I believe still is the king of its niche of turn-based, grid-based tactical RPGs.

But note that, other Mass Effect 2, all the games I mentioned are less than 10 years old.