Original AFFC Outline

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Man Arys vs Balon would have been a great fight. 

Would it? We know Balon’s prowess, but I don’t recall if Arys was actually any good.

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I can toally see him getting her all alone and telling her he know who she is and offering to take her 'home'... but she panicks and immediately attacks him (think a dagger through the belly like Arya's first kill, or shoving him from some precipice or another like LF did to Lysa). Beautiful.

Hell yeah! Or maybe spike a drink like sweet Cersei, or fill him up with crossbow bolts like Dontos! A million ways to die in the west-eros.

6 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I like the Mad Mouse and I'll be sad to see him gone, but I love this potential plotline.

Yeah for sure, I was a bit rash. I disliked his rudness to Brienne and his plans for kidnapping Sansa but I was totally a fan of his hubris and drive. Not to mention his recent success in tracking her down. 

I agree, it's a shame he's getting written off but totally agree that Sansa with her hands dirty opens up a whole new world.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Sansa killing the Mad Mouse!! Love that for her. 

I love that for more selfish reasons as it would (probably) end the speculation about the MM being Howland Reed, something I've always thought feels like grasping at straws, perhaps in part b/c everyone is just really looking forward to Howland finally making an appearance. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I can toally see him getting her all alone and telling her he know who she is and offering to take her 'home'... but she panicks and immediately attacks him (think a dagger through the belly like Arya's first kill, or shoving him from some precipice or another like LF did to Lysa). Beautiful. I like the Mad Mouse and I'll be sad to see him gone, but I love this potential plotline.

While I agree that this would be the way that it would happen if Sansa did kill someone personally, it feels more in line with her character development for her to get rid of Shadrich without doing the deed herself, which is typically how the other “political” players do it. There’s also the melee coming up to consider.

Like someone else mentioned, I’m guessing that Brienne v. Hound refers to Brienne fighting someone wearing the Hound’s helm. That said, it would be pretty funny if the fight from S4 of GOT was based on something planned for the books.

[Lady Dacey]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree that this would be the way that it would happen if Sansa did kill someone personally, it feels more in line with her character development for her to get rid of Shadrich without doing the deed herself, which is typically how the other “political” players do it

I 100% agree with you but would love to see something radically different play out 

[The Bard of Banefort]

49 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I 100% agree with you but would love to see something radically different play out 

It would be interesting to see how Sansa processes taking another person’s life, or if she even processes it at all. Like Ned, she compartmentalizes. For instance, she’s been unable to acknowledge that LF is poisoning Sweetrobin so far, which is another factor at play in the Vale plot. That’s got to come to a head at some point.

There was an old GRRM quote from the early-2000s where he said that LF was going to eventually hit a snag once he realizes that he doesn’t actually command an army in the Riverlands. Assuming that’s still something he has in mind, I’m very curious what it means for Sansa’s plot. There’s lots going on in the Riverlands at the moment.

[Alester Florent]

The inverted commas around "Osmund" in the second page are interesting. Was GRRM originally intending for the Kettleblacks to be interchangeable or easily confused somehow? Is there something we're still missing about their actions and intentions?

[sifth]

The fact that Jon Snow was suppose to go to Hardhome, like he does in the show, is very interesting. I wonder why GRRM got rid of this idea. It would have made Jon's ADWD's story a lot more exciting.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Someone please remind me, did Hardhome already happen off-screen? It’s been a while since I’ve read ADWD.

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Someone please remind me, did Hardhome already happen off-screen? It’s been a while since I’ve read ADWD.

Jon gets a letter from Cotter Pyke, towards the end of the book, that tells him that something horrible happened there. Jon then plans to travel to Hard Home, but then gets the Pink Letter and we all know what happens from there.

[Mithras]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

The fact that Jon Snow was suppose to go to Hardhome, like he does in the show, is very interesting. I wonder why GRRM got rid of this idea. It would have made Jon's ADWD's story a lot more exciting.

Jon was planning to lead the Hardhome mission himself if not for Ramsay's letter. The assassination seemed premeditated, which is why I think they were planning to take Jon out for a while and the Hardhome mission must have seemed like the perfect opportunity. But they had to act quickly due to the change of plans and the assassination ended up being somewhat botched.

There is an abandoned draft where Mel had a vision of Jon leading 20 rangers to Craster's to deal with the mutineers. Mel was warning Jon against daggers and false friends just the same.

I think the original idea of "killing" Jon was during the raid to Craster's. GRRM dropped that idea and decided to make it during the Hardhome mission. Then he dropped that too and introduced Ramsay's letter.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mithras

[Mithras]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps it’s a scene that was adapted by the show.  Tyrion witnesses Dany and Aegon aka Young Griff perhaps.  The show later alters it to Dany and Jon Snow aka Aegon.

Not likely. Tyrion would end AFfC at Volantis and would not meet Dany up until ADwD. Whatever the incest is, it should be on Shy Maid or during the Sorrows episode. Perhaps Tyrion would crack Septa Lemore's true identity as well and discover that she is related to fAegon and some of the lessons she gave him in her cabin were very intimate in nature.

[Mithras]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I doubt it will go according to plan (nothing does in this series), but what do you think is going to happen?

Well, it won't go according to the plans because LF spelled the whole thing out loud to the readers.

I think Myranda Royce is the one Sweetrobin weds. Harry is slain during the tourney. LF tries to rape Sansa during which she kills him. Shadrich and 3 Sunderland brothers kidnap Sansa. They bring her to King's Landing and sell her to Cersei.

[The Bard of Banefort]

39 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Well, it won't go according to the plans because LF spelled the whole thing out loud to the readers.

I think Myranda Royce is the one Sweetrobin weds. Harry is slain during the tourney. LF tries to rape Sansa during which she kills him. Shadrich and 3 Sunderland brothers kidnap Sansa. They bring her to King's Landing and sell her to Cersei.

I never considered the possibility that Myranda would marry Sweetrobin, but I love it.

I don’t think LF can die before the extent of his crimes (betraying Ned, trafficking Jeyne) are revealed publicly. WRT Sansa, LF is absurdly proud that he, allegedly, deflowered both of the Tully sisters. Since he sees Sansa as an even prettier, more highborn Catelyn, I don’t think he’ll be able to tolerate the idea of someone else claiming her maidenhead. My theory is that that he’ll try to seduce Sansa (probably by telling her that her first time should be with a “real man” and not a green boy), but that she’ll deflect him by lying that she already lost her virginity during her time in King’s Landing. Just a theory, but it’s the sort of thing I could see happening.

[SeanF]

Sansa's taking back the North is the most interesting part of it, and is probably a part of her endgame.

It would likely involve a darker turn in her character, since her soldiers would probably act in much the same way as Robb's soldiers acted. If we ever get TWOW, I wonder if, first, she'll lead an army that sacks the Twins, and puts the remaining Freys to the sword.

Dany's storyline did not benefit from being expanded.  The briefer story in the outline would have been better.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sansa's taking back the North is the most interesting part of it, and is probably a part of her endgame.

It would likely involve a darker turn in her character, since her soldiers would probably act in much the same way as Robb's soldiers acted. If we ever get TWOW, I wonder if, first, she'll lead an army that sacks the Twins, and puts the remaining Freys to the sword.

Dany's storyline did not benefit from being expanded.  The briefer story in the outline would have been better.

I don’t think Sansa will make it that far before something goes awry. Keep in mind, Jaime and Brienne, Stoneheart and the Brotherhood, and the Hound are all in the Riverlands, unbeknownst to her. If Sansa goes North, we’re heading for some kind of collision.

What’s really interesting is that it sounds like George originally planned for a full story for her in AFFC: the Feast chapters, the Winged Tourney itself, and whatever happened afterward. Instead, we only got the first part.

It’s funny how George’s plan for Dany always seemed to be for her to get remarried, ride a dragon, and end up back with the Dothraki. It sounds pretty straightforward, but it caused him so much trouble.

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Mithras said:

Not likely. Tyrion would end AFfC at Volantis and would not meet Dany up until ADwD. Whatever the incest is, it should be on Shy Maid or during the Sorrows episode. Perhaps Tyrion would crack Septa Lemore's true identity as well and discover that she is related to fAegon and some of the lessons she gave him in her cabin were very intimate in nature.

I’m not sure that there were chapters with Tyrion on the Shy Maid at the point of this outline.  If you look at Tyrion’s second chapter it starts with cliffhanger with Dany.  It makes me think that Tyrion’s POV chapters start with him either already having arrived in Mereen or just having arrived in Mereen.

Tyrion probably shows up with Young Griff and company at Mereen being sent by Illyrio to provide counsel for Dany.  Tyrion’s journey with Young Griff might be encapsulated via flashback.  

Perhaps they first showed up in Dany’s first chapter, where she learns to ride a dragon, decides to call off her marriage to Hizdhar, and decides to go to Westeros.

And the scene involving Young Griff is later substituted for the scene involving Quentyn who arrives in disguise as well.  Or perhaps both envoys arrive at around the same time.

Perhaps the whole fire vs mud debate we get in Barristan’s chapter was originally supposed to be Dany choosing Young Griff over Quentyn.

Then the chapter shifts to Tyrion’s POV, where perhaps we get the backstory of his journeys with Young Griff through a flashback, and then Tyrion spying on Young Griff and Dany.

Tyrion then gets kidnapped by Jorah and that’s when he later is brought to the Sorrows and Volantis and it’s Jorah who contracts greyscale in the Sorrows as opposed to Griff.  Tyrion then gets with the Second Sons, and perhaps that’s who he ends up arriving in Westeros with.

Or perhaps the whole Jorah thing was an alternate to cliffhanger with Dany, I’m not sure what the questions connote.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[zionius]

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 If you look at Tyrion’s second chapter it starts with cliffhanger with Dany.  It makes me think that Tyrion’s POV chapters start with him either already having arrived in Mereen or just having arrived in Mereen.

As I said in OP, the outline only covers yet unwritten contents. 1, 2, 3, 4 means he had planned 4 upcoming chapters and then decided to only include 2 in FEAST. 5-2=3, so he already finished 3 Tyrion chapters by then, and each can be identified from gsteff's spreadsheet. 

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, zionius said:

As I said in OP, the outline only covers yet unwritten contents. 1, 2, 3, 4 means he had planned 4 upcoming chapters and then decided to only include 2 in FEAST. 5-2=3, so he already finished 3 Tyrion chapters by then, and each can be identified from gsteff's spreadsheet. 

But, according to the outline it looks like Tyrion’s travels through the Sorrows was going to be after he was kidnapped by Jorah,  so that implies that he may not have originally planned on any chapters covering Tyrion’s journey on the Shy Maid.

ETA:  Oh, I see what you’re saying.  The four sub chaptersunder captured by Jorah?  Are a reference to the earlier chapters.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

So I do have one question, when/where was he originally planning on placing Tyrion “witness to incest”?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Frey family reunion