UK Politics: Rwanda Rehash

[Crixus]

17 hours ago, maarsen said:

I have serious doubt that a private school education is superior to a publicly funded school system. Are private schools repositories of esoteric knowledge that is unavailable to the rest of us? Are the teachers a better class of human beings than the rest of the population and more able to access the esoteric knowledge hidden in their schools. The only difference is better funding at the expense of those of us who have not the ability to send our kids there. As I see it a lot of the reasons for private schools is to keep your kids away from the real world and its issues for as long as possible.

If you really want a good education for your child, surround them with books and other resources so they can explore the world around them and actually learn and grow.

I wouldn't know the details about private vs. public in the UK as I don't live there and I'm not a mum. I studied at a convent run by nuns in Pakistan, which cost next to nothing and was truly excellent, so there is that. I'm sure you make valid points about the nuances, but again, if some parents think such schools can provide kids with tools to help succeed, it's a perfectly valid choice for them. 

My nephew and niece are very much surrounded by books, art and other resources, and they're certainly not kept away from the real world - they're very much a part of it.

 

 

Edited February 6 by Crixus

[BigFatCoward]

16 minutes ago, Crixus said:

is decidedly middle-class.

 

As discussed up thread, a year at Harrow is 50 grand, i'm not sure you can consider yourself 'middle class' if you have 50 grand spare per kid. 

[Crixus]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

As discussed up thread, a year at Harrow is 50 grand, i'm not sure you can consider yourself 'middle class' if you have 50 grand spare per kid. 

 That is precisely why I said earlier that my sister 'is willing to do without a lot'. She and her family have taken plenty of steps to live frugally and save - her husband inherited a bit of money recently and rather than using it elsewhere, they're using it here. Personally, I'd make other choices, but this is what they want. 

[The Anti-Targ]

I'm utterly unconvinced that there is educational value for money in private schools, except for the borderline idiots for whom going to a private school might get them across the line. If you have a good home life, parents committed to their children's education, you're inherent EQ and IQ are above average and a decent state school you will go far.

I am convinced that having "X" school alumnus beside your name opens doors, because there are people who care about that kind of thing.

My kids went to state school, one is a civil engineer soon to be chartered the other is doing their PhD in chemistry. Me and my siblings went to state school, I'm a vet, my sister is a lawyer, my brother did a physics PhD, my youngest brother has a successful business (no university degree but he's richer than the rest of us), and one brother is very smart, but lazy as fuck so has mostly been without a job his adult life. Mine was also the first generation on both sides of the family to go to university. We got there because of our ability and effort. It could be I live in a country that is more of a meritocracy than many. There's not much classism here. Perhaps in places where class is more of the thing the name of the school you attended has a bigger influence on your future.

The one thing we're not is "connected", but that's more choice than lack of opportunity.

 

 

[mormont]

 

1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm utterly unconvinced that there is educational value for money in private schools, except for the borderline idiots for whom going to a private school might get them across the line.

The thing about that is, these kids then go to uni and struggle academically. Getting in the door doesn't help if you don't have the ability. That's part of the reason why entrance qualifications are a poor predictor of your university grades. 

[The Anti-Targ]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

 

The thing about that is, these kids then go to uni and struggle academically. Getting in the door doesn't help if you don't have the ability. That's part of the reason why entrance qualifications are a poor predictor of your university grades. 

I meant get them across the line for graduating high school and coming out with some marketable skills. I wasn't imagining them going to university.

[Spockydog]

Sending your kids to boarding school is beyond fucking cruel. There is no doubt in my mind about this. 

Tyler said he hated every minute. So did my posho friend. What does that tell you? 

Read some of the witness statements in those reports I linked. Then try and tell me that packing your kids off to boarding school is a good thing. 

Yes, sexual abuse happens in state schools too. But at least you're not locked in a dorm with your abuser every night. 

ETA: And if you absolutely fucking hate your own children, just send them to Gordonstoun. 

Edited February 6 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

49 minutes ago, Crixus said:

 That is precisely why I said earlier that my sister 'is willing to do without a lot'. She and her family have taken plenty of steps to live frugally and save - her husband inherited a bit of money recently and rather than using it elsewhere, they're using it here. Personally, I'd make other choices, but this is what they want. 

Did they ask the kids what THEY want? 

[Crixus]

18 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm utterly unconvinced that there is educational value for money in private schools, except for the borderline idiots for whom going to a private school might get them across the line. If you have a good home life, parents committed to their children's education, you're inherent EQ and IQ are above average and a decent state school you will go far.

I am convinced that having "X" school alumnus beside your name opens doors, because there are people who care about that kind of thing.

My kids went to state school, one is a civil engineer soon to be chartered the other is doing their PhD in chemistry. Me and my siblings went to state school, I'm a vet, my sister is a lawyer, my brother did a physics PhD, my youngest brother has a successful business (no university degree but he's richer than the rest of us), and one brother is very smart, but lazy as fuck so has mostly been without a job his adult life. Mine was also the first generation on both sides of the family to go to university. We got there because of our ability and effort. It could be I live in a country that is more of a meritocracy than many. There's not much classism here. Perhaps in places where class is more of the thing the name of the school you attended has a bigger influence on your future.

The one thing we're not is "connected", but that's more choice than lack of opportunity.

 

 

A bit of context from my side: 

1. We come from a middle-class family in Pakistan. My dad was an alcoholic who died when we were very young, and my mum was a housewife who'd never worked. From there, she studied, started a job (at a low level) and worked her way up to a place where she could send us all to the best colleges she could afford - whilst living in an extremely conservative society as a widow. Just mentioning this in case people think we're some sort of posh, rich family. We most certainly are not. We are now all doing well in our careers, and that is thanks to all the work she put in. 

2. There is absolutely a lot of classism both in Pakistan and in the UK, and despite working your butt off, the lack of connections does matter. My sister simply wants to give her kids every advantage she can, and I'm certainly not going to judge her or shit on her for that. 

3. It's not simply about 'people caring about that sort of thing' though there is that - it's also that, growing up in an environment where who you know does matter in real, demonstrable ways, my sister wants to do what she can to give her kids every chance she can. It doesn't mean she's cruel or barbaric or doesn't give a fuck about her kids - quite the opposite. Some of the comments here come off as weirdly judgmental. 

@Spockydog , sure, and I've also seen positive anecdotes from people. Also, people can get assaulted in non-boarding schools too. Re 'cruel', my sister is an incredible mum, and I'm getting a bit tired of your insistence on labelling her as 'cruel' when you don't know dick about her. She isn't a millionaire who's casually packing her kids off to boarding school because she can't be bothered - she's working her arse off to do what she thinks is best for them. But I'll be sure to discuss the links you shared (not being sarcastic) because it is of course important to be aware of this. 

@mormont from the amount of studying and intensive prep my nephew did for well over a year to apply to these schools, I was under the impression it isn't easy to get in and that it's not just a function of how much you can pay. I might be wrong, so please correct me. 

 

[Crixus]

18 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Did they ask the kids what THEY want? 

Yes, absolutely. Many times. If my nephew said he didn't want to go at all, she wouldn't send him. And, they have now opted for Winchester because it's close enough for him to come home every weekend. 

Edited February 6 by Crixus

[Fragile Bird]

2 hours ago, Crixus said:

A bit of context from my side: 

 

I know you want to explain things but I have to say I’m getting annoyed (not with you) because you don’t have to justify your family’s actions. My brother wanted to go to university in the US, not a fancy Ivy league university, but we weren’t rich either and the Canadian dollar was low, so we all made sacrifices for him. I didn’t want to burden my parents with debt so I went to university in the city instead of going out of town and having the away-from-home experience teens want and enjoy. And paid my way with student loans, which my brother was not burdened with. Family.

[BigFatCoward]

@Crixus don't you accept its a bit morally repugnant that children of privilege (and if you have 50k a year spare you are privileged, I dont care how much you are careful with your money) get incredible education and contacts which perpetuates social immobility, whole other no less deserving kids (literally a mile down the road) go to sinkhole schools? 

Everyone wants the best for their family, doesn't make it OK. And it's definitely not fair. 

[Heartofice]

Another factor that is less talked about is the way pressure is put on parents to put their kids into private school.
 

I know a lot of middle income families who close to bankrupted themselves to make sure their kids got a private education. They were absolutely terrified of sending children to a state school. 

The disparity between the different forms of education is stark and has next to no positive consequences.

[BigFatCoward]

The difference in house prices in London for catchment areas of good state schools is fucking insane.

But then if you compare it to the cost of sticking 2 kids through public school it's a fucking bargain. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

My wife and I moved to East Renfrewshire (where she grew up and her brother and retired parents still live) entirely due to the state schools, which have two of the top three or four state schools in Scotland.

This is why house prices are crazy here, but we both hsd flats to sell.

My daughter goes to a Catholic primary school despite her heritsge being athiest parents of Protestant and Jewish backgrounds (one of my wife’s grandfathers was a bodyguard of Golda Meir’s). 50% of that school’s pupils are non-catholic, lot of muslim kids.

My daughter’s feed-in secondary school is in the top 3 in Scotland. Had we stayed where my flat was, we’d probably have enrolled her in the very well regarded Gaelic school.

Edited February 7 by Derfel Cadarn

[HexMachina]

I've only ever attended state school son 've no comparator, but there is so much wrong with the system and nobody seems to win out. We had such a high turnover rate for teachers because they'd simply burnout under the stress of teaching classes that were too large, too varied in ability and quite often too unruly. They didn't have the numbers or resources to give the time and attention to kids with behavioural issues, and as for diagnosed medical issues that can impact your learning -autism, dyslexia, etc. - well good luck with getting the actual attention required for that. 

I started school when our infant and junior schools were still separate (non-UK, this is from 3(?)-6 and 6-11 respectively). The junior school had been built in the 1800s and honestly, it showed. We did get a flashy new primary school which eventually combined them but, for all the money I'm sure it cost, it wasn't exactly "state of the art". We made do but looking back it was rough and the more i talk to some of my friends who had a wealthier background the more apparent it becomes. Things I consider normal are very much not to others

[The Anti-Targ]

The post code aspect of state schools is also a terrible indictment on the education system. That's a really hard nut to crack. My wife started professional life as an English teacher with a bit of music teaching on the side, and now she's mostly a music teacher with a bit of English on the side. She has taught in some of the lowest socio-economic schools in the country. She knew kids who had great potential, but for many of them they didn't get close to that potential largely because of their social environment, dysfunctional families, other family pressures, poverty, lack of role models to help create a vision that higher education, professional qualifications are legitimate aspirations, largely things that are going on outside the school boundary, which no matter what the school tries to do it can't mitigate all those negative factors dragging these students down. There is a perception among parents that if their child is a promising student the only way for them to achieve is to gain admission into one of the prestige state schools. Some of the prestige state schools have established out of zone "scholarships" for students from poor areas. As a state school there's not that much of a cost to going to the prestige schools because they are still state funded, though they have annual "voluntary" donations charged to parents, so the "scholarship" waives the "voluntary" donation. 

@Crixus I didn't intend to be judgemental of you or your family, my intention was to rail against the multiple injustices of the system that winds up with families who will struggle and make sacrifices to get their kids an overpriced education because of the benefits of being at those schools, which have nothing at all to do with educational achievements, i.e. it should not matter where you get your A-levels from. Sadly in many ways it does matter where you get your A-levels from. So I do not judge or criticise people for doing what they think is necessary to get their children the best opportunities. I only criticise the social order that makes such things almost necessary.

And some people still think they can argue that we have equality of opportunity. My arse!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Doesn't this all just speak to a flaw in the European system? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that in several countries your career path could be somewhat decided based on how well you did by your early teens and thus there was a heavy push to send your kids to high end schools early on. IIRC from my French courses by 14 the quality of schools you went to was predetermined. 

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Doesn't this all just speak to a flaw in the European system? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told that in several countries your career path could be somewhat decided based on how well you did by your early teens and thus there was a heavy push to send your kids to high end schools early on. IIRC from my French courses by 14 the quality of schools you went to was predetermined. 

Do no US states still stream students? We had streaming here in Canada when I was a teen. By grade 8 your life was taken over - you went into the university stream if you attended certain schools, or there was the “commerce” stream where you were sent to become a secretary or other office worker, and if you were deemed too stupid to handle the course loads, they sent you to a technical school to learn to be a mechanic or a woodworker or something. Lots of parents put their kids into the Catholic high school system because they were pissed off at what the school boards decided for their kids.

Iirc, Germany did that, though I think they also wanted smart kids in the technical schools, and I think a number of Asian countries do it, particularly Japan. Which is why terrified parents push their kids hard to get them in a good school. I think there’s an element of what school district you live in as well, everyone wants to live where the good schools are.

[The Anti-Targ]

20 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Do no US states still stream students? We had streaming here in Canada when I was a teen. By grade 8 your life was taken over - you went into the university stream if you attended certain schools, or there was the “commerce” stream where you were sent to become a secretary or other office worker, and if you were deemed too stupid to handle the course loads, they sent you to a technical school to learn to be a mechanic or a woodworker or something. Lots of parents put their kids into the Catholic high school system because they were pissed off at what the school boards decided for their kids.

Iirc, Germany did that, though I think they also wanted smart kids in the technical schools, and I think a number of Asian countries do it, particularly Japan. Which is why terrified parents push their kids hard to get them in a good school. I think there’s an element of what school district you live in as well, everyone wants to live where the good schools are.

Good lord that's awful!

There is streaming here but only within a school and only a few schools do it beyond maths streaming (I was always the worst maths student in the highest maths stream). Any student from any school can go to any university and apply for any degree course, provided they have the grades in the relevant subjects. And every state high school provides all of the core senior HS subjects (maths, English, phys, chem, bio) and all of the main non-core subjects (history, geography, 2 or more foreign languages, music, art, sports "science", tech). The less competent high school seniors do statistics as their maths subject, the braniacs do calculus. I did stats, both my sons did calc and they scoff at my lowly stats brain . As long as you do well enough in either you can apply for medical school, but if you only do stats you'll have to take remedial calc if you want to do a maths or physics degree.