Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[straits]

17 hours ago, Zorral said:

When Joe Biden was asked about this on 11 October he said: ‘I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.’ The White House said he had not in fact seen such pictures but had based his comments on media reports from Israel and on a statement by a spokesperson for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Biden repeated the claim on 12 December, but it is no longer being made by the Israelis. It had served its purpose.

This tactic was employed in the Gulf war. "300 babies dragged out of incubators to die" by Iraqi forces. By the time a correction was issued, the lie had done its job, which is to silence disagreement in the initial heat which forms the the response to an attack. On October the 8th (or rather in the first few weeks that followed), denial of "beheaded babies" would have earned you a swift ban on some online spaces.

It reminds me of a quote by Terry Pratchett — 'A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.'

Edited January 16 by straits
dates

[Ran]

3 hours ago, straits said:

It reminds me of a quote by Terry Pratchett — 'A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.'

Much like the false reports of an IDF strike killing 500 people at Al-Ahli, which ended up being carried with no corroboration by all the world's leading media outlets.

This cuts both ways.

Edited January 16 by Ran

[Kalbear]

40 minutes ago, Ran said:

Much like the false reports of an IDF strike killing 500 people at Al-Ahli, which ended up being carried with no corroboration by all the world's leading media outlets.

This cuts both ways.

It does! And it doesn't make the idf less of liars. I still don't understand the idea that pointing out one group's flaws means the implication that another group does not have those flaws.

[straits]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Much like the false reports of an IDF strike killing 500 people at Al-Ahli, which ended up being carried with no corroboration by all the world's leading media outlets.

This cuts both ways.

Always. Although, the different edges of the blade cut to different depths.

Edited January 16 by straits

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

39 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It does! And it doesn't make the idf less of liars. I still don't understand the idea that pointing out one group's flaws means the implication that another group does not have those flaws.

It doesn't, but again, one side is held to a high standard while the other isn't. 

[Relic]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It doesn't, but again, one side is held to a high standard while the other isn't. 

You don't think Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas?

[straits]

You'd think that not doing ethnic cleansing and apartheid were achievable standards, but here we are.

[fionwe1987]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It doesn't, but again, one side is held to a high standard while the other isn't. 

And? Either Israel is a democracy that holds to international law, or it isn't. You cannot both claim that when it is advantageous, then dispense with it and complain about being held to a higher standards when asked for proof that this is the case. 

On the flip side, Hamas is trash, and I really expect nothing factual from them. Nor do they make claims to be a norm-abiding democracy though!

Edited January 16 by fionwe1987

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Relic said:

You don't think Israel should be held to a higher standard than Hamas?

Sigh, as I've said several times, yes it should, but Hamas is held to basically no standard. As they openly say they want to kill every Jew. 

[Kalbear]

46 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It doesn't, but again, one side is held to a high standard while the other isn't. 

And again, would you want Israel to be held to the same standards as a terrorist organization?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And again, would you want Israel to be held to the same standards as a terrorist organization?

No, but again, Hamas is a governing body and they also need to be held to a reasonable standard. 

[mormont]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, but again, Hamas is a governing body and they also need to be held to a reasonable standard. 

The problem here is not the standards Hamas are being held to, but your perception of the standard and whether they are being held to it. They are!

Nothing is achieved by people who all agree that Hamas are appalling, repeatedly saying so, just for the sake of saying so. But you've heard numerous people say that before, and keep coming back to make the same point just the same. Why?

[Kalbear]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, but again, Hamas is a governing body and they also need to be held to a reasonable standard. 

What standard should they be held to that they currently are not?

[DanteGabriel]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, but again, Hamas is a governing body and they also need to be held to a reasonable standard. 

Creeping Jesus, this was a stale and useless argument the first hundred fucking times too.

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, straits said:

This tactic was employed in the Gulf war.

I posted this many times from the gitgo.  Huns impaling babies on bayonets was rife at the start of WWI -- also not true.

Babies on blades during the Revolution on San Domingue did happen, though not as wide-spread as the many horrors committed before and and during the struggle, particularly on Black people before, and also after, though this round on Whites too.

Like rape, the deliberate killing of babies did happen a lot in war, particularly in siege warfare when the troops were let loose for three days to plunder, rape and murder as they liked.  Or, in the Indian wars that lasted for centuries in North America, with white soldiers killing the babies too.

But in this case the beheading of babies immediately screamed propaganda as did the preemies of the Iraq war, as did the screaming poison gas and all sorts of Israeli propaganda from the git go.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

34 minutes ago, mormont said:

Nothing is achieved by people who all agree that Hamas are appalling, repeatedly saying so, just for the sake of saying so. 

But yet that's cool for the Israeli government? Everyone agrees they are appalling as well.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, straits said:

Always. Although, the different edges of the blade cut to different depths.

And yet, the IDF has bombed hospitals, their personnel and the patients in Gaza.  Just not 500 at that particular hospital.  And, actually, the final decision about that is still uncertain, as the evidence has been 'unavailable' -- as mentioned in the NYer piece linked to above re bibi, particularly as the IDF so immediately showed the risible defense of a rifle behind an MRI machine, etc.

[fionwe1987]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

But yet that's cool for the Israeli government? Everyone agrees they are appalling as well.

Clearly they don't? Like, America obviously doesn't think so, and is sending aid and weaponry to Israel's government, no? 

Did I miss when America sent some Patriots and F-16s to Hamas or something? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Clearly they don't? Like, America obviously doesn't think so, and is sending aid and weaponry to Israel's government, no? 

Did I miss when America sent some Patriots and F-16s to Hamas or something? 

I'm talking about in these threads. Move the goalposts more all you need to. 

[Kalbear]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

But yet that's cool for the Israeli government? Everyone agrees they are appalling as well.

But they keep doing more shit. That's the point! It's not just that they did something a few years ago (though gods do y'all love to talk about what happened in the 1920s), it's that right now, they're bombing hospitals and schools and refugee camps. Right now they're saying that they want to send Palestinians to Egypt or the Congo. Right now they're saying that it is in the Gazan's nature to hoard food and they're not actually hungry.

If Hamas did another mass terrorist event I'm sure we'd be talking about that, but that hasn't happened. What has happened is an average of 230 deaths a day, and that continues to be the case. Which is more newsworthy?

13 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I'm talking about in these threads. Move the goalposts more all you need to. 

And again, I ask - what would you like people to do? Be specific. Tell us what you would consider fair and balanced here. Every time we report on an Israeli politician saying something about ethnic cleansing or saying how starvation isn't actually happening, what would you like us to do? Should we comment on how Hamas is bad? Does that make any sense at all to you? When you talk about this week's NFL results do you require also that everyone bring up what happened at the start of the season, or in the 1974 superbowl?