Zorral Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Yuval Noah Harari: “Netanyahu built a coalition of messianic fanatics and opportunistic scoundrels” The Israeli historian and writer, author of the best-seller 'Sapiens' and with more than 45 million books sold, is one of the world's leading thinkers. https://elpais.com/eps/2024-01-16/yuval-noah-harari-netanyahu-construyo-una-coalicion-de-fanaticos-mesianicos-y-sinverguenzas-oportunistas.html? Quote .... In the midst of all this blindness, Hamas attacked on October 7 to prevent, according to Harari, something very specific. “Israel was about to sign a peace agreement with Saudi Arabia. The treaty was intended to normalize relations between Israel and the Arab world, improve conditions for the Palestinians, and restart the peace process. That prospect of normalization has terrified both Hamas and Iran, its main supporter. That's why the attack took place, that's why they carried it out so viciously against civilians and even filmed it. The goal was to derail the agreement and spread seeds of hatred that would end any chance for future peace,” he believes. Despite everything, he challenges his Government not to fall into a trap: “They should not lock us in an endless war. I hope that, after disarming Hamas, this does not mean frustrating future peace agreements, that Israel returns to the Saudi proposal, commits to the path of pacification and realizes that this can only be achieved if it entails the possibility of providing to the Palestinians of a dignified life in their own homeland.” But the goal is moving away. The obstinacy of the Israeli Government and the authoritarian signs of recent years led us to fear the worst and this happened. “This behavior over the years has corroded the power of the Army and the State. Israel has dubbed the military operation Iron Swords. But if you keep those swords in salt water, they rust. No matter what one may think about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the way Netanyahu's populist policies have corroded the State of Israel should serve as a warning to all democracies around the world. If you give power to populists, it can happen to you.” .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 West Bank strike: Israel accused of targeting civilians in deadly attack https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006126 I read in few places that IDF is using AI for targeting which is why it has gotten so much wrong from the gitgo. I don't know certainly this is true. Quote .... Israel is accused of having targeted a group of Palestinian civilians with no links to armed groups and who posed no threat to Israeli forces, according to witnesses in the occupied West Bank. Seven men - four of them brothers - were killed in an Israeli air strike early on 7 January, as they sat around a fire next to the road through al-Shuhada village, 10km (six miles) from the city of Jenin. The BBC has spoken to relatives of the men killed, witnesses in the area at the time, and a paramedic at the scene. All provided strong evidence that the men were not members of armed militant groups, and that no clashes with Israeli forces were taking place in the location at the time. Khalid al-Ahmad, the first paramedic to arrive that morning, is convinced the men were doing nothing wrong. "One of them was wearing slippers and pyjamas," he told the BBC. "Don't you think that someone who wants to resist [the Israeli occupation] would at least wear proper shoes?" .... There is no other conclusion than IDF is doing this so badly, murdering so many innocent people, because it wants to. The Fallen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Quote “They brought in an ambulance [and] disguised David as a corpse. They put me in traditional Arab clothes and they put Yuli on me and covered her with a sheet,” she said. “There were about three rooms of hostages [in the hospital]. Each one was 10 to 12 people in it, small rooms, 12 square feet. So not a lot of room.” https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/freed-israeli-hostage-says-held-in-gaza-hospital-intl/index.html Think we can put this one to bed. Hamas is using hospitals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 59 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/freed-israeli-hostage-says-held-in-gaza-hospital-intl/index.html Think we can put this one to bed. Hamas is using hospitals. We literally had video evidence of Hamas bringing hostages to a hospital, Al Shifa, months ago. Why is this news to you? As to why Sharon Aloni-Cunio and her family were eventually brought to the hospital, it's because the home she was in was almost destroyed by an IDF bomb, resulting in glass in her head that had to be removed. Quote At first, Sharon says they were taken to a family's house with two Hamas terrorists present all the time. Sharon says at first she could not stop crying. Yet at the same time she says she had to look after her daughter and try to keep her quiet under their captors’ threats. The former hostage said they, unlike other released abductees, had no access to radio or television and, hence had no information, especially about other members of their family. "One day the house next door was bombed, and half of the wall, windows, everything broke on us and they understood they had to take us from there. We were shaking, shivering, everything was covered in glass, and some glass even went into my head." She recounted how the terrorists disguised her in local clothes and made her husband appear to be a corpse in order to transfer them in an ambulance to a local hospital. This is where the family was kept up until Sharon and her children were released. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/survivor-testimonies/1703509669-i-die-of-fear-every-day-released-hostage-sharon-aloni-cunio-on-her-husband-s-faith-in-gaza It became obvious relatively early on that the IDF was non-discriminately destroying residential structures, making it dangerous to hold hostages in houses long term. Hospitals have been one of the few structures that the IDF have not intentionally bombed. Everything else appears to be fair game for the bombing campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proudfeet Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 8 hours ago, Clueless Northman said: You forgot: "topless Hebrew-speaking redhead people waving a white flag". Because, as is well-known, that's an apt desription of your average Hamas goon... Not sure I got my point across. Was late to the discussion on ROE and civilian casualties, but its more wondering if just being in the area is enough to be a threat that needs to be killed. Possibility of ambush seems like a catch all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 I just love how some posters in this thread talk like Hamas being gone would be the end of things. Hamas is one of the organizations born out of Palestinian counter-occupation uprisings in the last century. What exactly do you expect to happen when they collapse? Palestinians give up survival instinct and stop fighting back? straits, KingintheNorth4, Craving Peaches and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 IRA's probably the best example of how this will go if it finally actually goes. IRA is gone, but uh a bunch of it's former members ended up in government. But then, Israel ended up with plenty of terrorists in it's government so I don't think it has room to complain. kissdbyfire, Prince of the North and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 hours ago, TrueMetis said: IRA's probably the best example of how this will go if it finally actually goes. IRA is gone, but uh a bunch of it's former members ended up in government. But then, Israel ended up with plenty of terrorists in it's government so I don't think it has room to complain. I had a brief look at the wiki page for Avi Dichter, Bezalel Smotrich, Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant, and Itamar Ben-Gvir. The names of their official roles suggest that they are at the core of the operation of the state of Israel; not at the fringes. If I wanted to present its government's officials as cartoonishly evil, I would struggle to invent their personal backgrounds. Zorral and kissdbyfire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Smotrich and Ben-Givir represent parties with 7 and 6 seats respectively in Knesset, and their present places in government are the aberrant and entirely due to the devil's bargains Netanyahu has been making to try and keep in power and out of potential legal jeopardy. Neither sits on the War Cabinet that basically makes all essential decisions related to the war in Gaza, nor does Dichter. Gallant has repeatedly stated, to push back from the far-right, that Palestinians should be in charge of Gaza when the war is done. Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 The lot of them ought to meet up at the Hague, to better continue their high-brow discussions on the shades of acceptable and unacceptable levels of ethnic cleansing and settler colonialism. KingintheNorth4, Craving Peaches and kissdbyfire 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 2 hours ago, Ran said: Smotrich and Ben-Givir represent parties with 7 and 6 seats respectively in Knesset, and their present places in government are the aberrant and entirely due to the devil's bargains Netanyahu has been making to try and keep in power and out of potential legal jeopardy. Neither sits on the War Cabinet that basically makes all essential decisions related to the war in Gaza, nor does Dichter. Gallant has repeatedly stated, to push back from the far-right, that Palestinians should be in charge of Gaza when the war is done. They have effects on the politics now and the future. Ignoring that is very stupid, and minimizing is as well since a true resolution is going to require it is foolish. Zorral and Craving Peaches 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 At this moment Kirsten Gillibrand (D) is on our prime time public radio talk show. She running for election again. She is touting for Israel crimes against humanity by regurgitating all the old foney arguments we see here over and over and over, starting with 'IT'S WAR!' --AND LIES starting with beheaded babies! She's that ill-informed or that cynical. Recall she thought she could run for the Dem POTUS nom in 2020 and got shot out of the water. Now she's running to keep her junior senator seat (Schumer is the senior). And now she's screaming. literally, as it seems does everyone who comes on these show who are touting for Israel crimes against humanity -- the same goddamned word salad they all scream, including 'we love everyone!' but we must kill the Palestinians. In the meantime the show is having call-ins to ask questions and or provide reactions. Recall, this is the most Jewish city in the world outside of Israel. As the host, who is Jewish, noted, the vast majority object strongly to what she's saying and what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank, including what has been going on for decades prior to Oct. 7. The host also played a tape of Senator Bernie Sanders who doesn't support her pov or Israel's commitment to crimes against humanity either. He's also clearly foreseeing a much wider war, which will destroy Israel, if Israel doesn't change its course here. BTW, Gillbrand's real opposition comes from a couple of upstate fascist challengers, so she's doing that same old thing of attempting to appeal to their bases. KingintheNorth4 and straits 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 In good and bad news, the President of Israel is talking about the vision for Gaza that involves multiple countries and potentially normalization with Saudi Arabia: https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-18-24/h_a3da0939a921dcc38628af8e256af772 it's still real short on details, but at least it's a good starting talk. That said, that's the only rosy part in that conversation: https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2024/01/18/Switzerland-Herzog-Israel-backstop-against-terror/1491705578920/ Quote In an address to business and political leaders at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland, Herzog said Israelis lacked the headspace to think about a future peace while they were under constant threat of attack. "Nobody in his right mind is willing now to think about what will be the right solution of the peace agreements. Everyone wants to know that he will not be attacked in the same way from north or south or east," Herzog said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Meanwhile and directly contradicting the President, Netanyahu - the current leader of Israel - says that a Palestinian state cannot exist: https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-18-24/h_3499eace96dd3e697af4e78aeefdb1aa Quote Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday that the idea of creating a Palestinian state would clash with the security of Israel. “In any future arrangement … Israel needs security control all territory west of Jordan. This clashes with the idea of (Palestinian) sovereignty. What can you do?” he told a press conference in Tel Aviv when asked about reports that he told US officials he opposes the idea of Palestinian sovereignty. Many countries, including the US, have called for the establishment of a Palestinian state. This is again on par with what about 80% of Israelis currently believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Ah yes, bibi repeating the party line, "From the river to the sea, there shall only be Israeli sovereignty". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Mothers of IDF soldiers protest to bring troops home JANUARY 18, 20245:20 PM ET HEARD ON ALL THINGS CONSIDERED By Daniel Estrin, Christine Arrasmith A new group of soldiers' mothers is calling to bring home the troops from Gaza and strike a diplomatic deal to end the war. The mothers represent a minority view in Israel. https://www.npr.org/2024/01/18/1225446340/mothers-of-idf-soldiers-protest-to-bring-troops-home#:~:text=Mothers of IDF soldiers protest to bring troops home A,a minority view in Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 I can almost see the saliva dripping out of his mouth in photos from all the salivating he’s doing about a broader and very long war. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-war-against-hamas-set-to-continue-into-2025-tv-report/ Netanyahu says war against Hamas set to continue into 2025 — TV report Quote Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly told local council chiefs from communities near Gaza on Tuesday that he anticipates the war against Hamas extending into 2025. According to an unsourced Channel 12 report on the meeting, which was held at the IDF’s southern command headquarters in Beersheba and attended by other security cabinet ministers, Netanyahu told the council chiefs that, according to the current assessment, the war may continue into next year. He disclosed the assessment in the course of a discussion in which he also reportedly agreed to revise a current Defense Ministry framework that provides financial assistance to Israeli residents who are prepared to return to evacuated communities 4-7 kilometers from the Gaza border areas. Zorral and straits 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingintheNorth4 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 5 hours ago, Kalbear said: Meanwhile and directly contradicting the President, Netanyahu - the current leader of Israel - says that a Palestinian state cannot exist: https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-18-24/h_3499eace96dd3e697af4e78aeefdb1aa This is again on par with what about 80% of Israelis currently believe. Shocking. kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Seems to me the Israeli government is intent on not just giving Hamas a reason to continue, but doing all it can to strengthen the organization. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said: Seems to me the Israeli government is intent on not just giving Hamas a reason to continue, but doing all it can to strengthen the organization. That's not their intent, but sure as shit seems like the longer term outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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