Corvinus85 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Sigh. I thought we were talking about whether or not it was important for the Noldor to be in Middle-earth and how things might have been different if they weren't. What does Ungoliant have anything to with this? She basically fucked off into oblivion after her grand achievement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 The presence of the Noldor in Middle-earth was predetermined by Eru Ilúvatar, anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASOIAFrelatedusername Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 He put the elves in Middle-earth in the first place after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said: He put the elves in Middle-earth in the first place after all. But the issue is the ones who went to Valinor and then came back to Middle-Earth in defiance of the Valar. In thr end, the Noldor going back to ME was a suicide mission, and thr Vakar had to intervene anyway, fucking up Beleriand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Feanor paid for tha Valar mistakes, they freed Melkor, he returned with Ungoliant and he destroyed the trees, the silmarils were the only objects that could restore the light . Feanor created the Silmarils, Melkor destroyed the trees ,killed Feanor father, stole the Silmarils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASOIAFrelatedusername Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said: But the issue is the ones who went to Valinor and then came back to Middle-Earth in defiance of the Valar. In thr end, the Noldor going back to ME was a suicide mission, and thr Vakar had to intervene anyway, fucking up Beleriand. The Noldorian effort ensured that Morgoth had to concentrate on Beleriand and that they were Men who were not under his dominion. While I can understand that the Valar couldn't commit their forces against Morgoth without that resulting in catastrophic damage, they still could have helped in more covert ways, like they did later with the Istari. However outside of Ulmo and the occasional eagle rescue (where it isn't that Manwe was involved) they didn't. At the very least they could have refrained from drowning all those people Turgon send for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drewy Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Interview with the writers of the Rohirrim anime: https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2024/02/26/117601-meet-the-new-fresh-faced-writers-of-the-war-of-the-rohirrim/ DMC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 2/23/2024 at 10:09 AM, KingAerys_II said: Feanor paid for tha Valar mistakes, they freed Melkor, he returned with Ungoliant and he destroyed the trees, the silmarils were the only objects that could restore the light . Feanor created the Silmarils, Melkor destroyed the trees ,killed Feanor father, stole the Silmarils Fëanor paid for his own mistakes, arrogance, and jealousy. Fëanor was the best and worst of Elvenkind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Fëanor paid for his own mistakes, arrogance, and jealousy. Fëanor was the best and worst of Elvenkind. Yeah Feanor as a character is very obviously Tolkien's depiction of hubris and its consequences. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) Rewatching RoP. One criticism not made is that while Galadriel is going out her way to avenge Finrod, he’s waslking about Valinor with their dad, who *was* wise enough to give Middle-Earth a miss Edited February 28 by Derfel Cadarn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Myrddin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 On 2/27/2024 at 9:06 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Fëanor paid for his own mistakes, arrogance, and jealousy. Fëanor was the best and worst of Elvenkind. The Silmarillion has great influence on fantasy literature, GRRM took some things from Tolkien world : Ungoliant , the spider is similar to the Great Other, a deity that embodies the concept of Void; Anglechiel is a sword forged using a meteor just like Dawn , the ancestral sword of House Dayne, Anglechiel is the sword Turin is going to use against Morgoth in the final battle , the concept of kinslaying , the burning of the the fleet by Feanor is something relatable to Nymeria story when she escaped to Westeros, that's why I consider Feanor to be the most important character in fantasy literature. GRRM is the best american fantasy writer hands down , he wrote Elden Ring lore, that's wonderful stuff, he gave the Aegon Conquest material to a great author , instead we have a poor fanfic about the rings of power and the fall of Numenor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said: The Silmarillion has great influence on fantasy literature, GRRM took some things from Tolkien world : Ungoliant , the spider is similar to the Great Other, a deity that embodies the concept of Void; Anglechiel is a sword forged using a meteor just like Dawn , the ancestral sword of House Dayne, Anglechiel is the sword Turin is going to use against Morgoth in the final battle , the concept of kinslaying , the burning of the the fleet by Feanor is something relatable to Nymeria story when she escaped to Westeros, that's why I consider Feanor to be the most important character in fantasy literature. GRRM is the best american fantasy writer hands down , he wrote Elden Ring lore, that's wonderful stuff, he gave the Aegon Conquest material to a great author , instead we have a poor fanfic about the rings of power and the fall of Numenor Eh???? We know next to nothing about the Great Other, and I’ve seen no similarities to Ungoliant. Swords forged from meteorites are ten-a-penny in fantasy. It’s more likely Dawn was inspired by Thorn, from Memory Thorn Sorrow which Martin says inspired ASoI&F. Kinslaying is also a common trope. And the burning of the fleet (Tolkein and Martin) is possibky drawn from Cortez burning his fleet upon arriving on the shores of America. Ser Scot A Ellison, IlyaP, baxus and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Did our boy just suggest that Tolkien invented the concept of Kinslaying. Also: 3 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: GRRM is the best american fantasy writer hands down , Ursula Le Guin shakes her head sadly alternatively Nnedi Okorafor shakes her head sadly Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 7 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Did our boy just suggest that Tolkien invented the concept of Kinslaying. Ancient Greek storytellers shake their heads sadly Myrddin, IlyaP, baxus and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said: Ancient Greek storytellers shake their heads sadly Ancient Greek kinslayers shake their heads sadly Jace, Extat, Derfel Cadarn, baxus and 2 others 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 55 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Ancient Greek kinslayers shake their heads sadly Cain and Abel shake their heads sadly. IlyaP, Jace, Extat, polishgenius and 2 others 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 2 hours ago, polishgenius said: Ancient Greek kinslayers shake their heads sadly The sack of Troy was clearly a homage to the Fall of Gondolin IlyaP, Corvinus85, Ser Scot A Ellison and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Kinslayer refers to parricide in Ancient Greece , it's a different concept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 58 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Kinslayer refers to parricide in Ancient Greece , it's a different concept If you’re going to nitpick, the kinslaying in Tolkein’s work barely qualifies. It basically refers to elf killing elf (Alqualonde, Doriath, and Sirion). Under that criteria, bwsically every killing in ASoI&F is ‘kinslaying’. The closest, from memory, we get to propery kinslaying in ASoI&F (apart from Tyrion) is The Atark/Karstark execution, and how many generations separate them? In ASoI&F a much bigger deal is made of violating guest right. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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