Shogun: More like Shogood (Spoilers 4 days post episode release, show spoilers only)

[Corvinus85]

I've watched episode 2. There is one thing I'm a bit confused on

Spoiler

Why did Ishido feel like he was forced to acquiesce to the Christian lords' demand that Blackthorne be executed? Does he hate Christians and/or the Portuguese? Blackthorne shouldn't really mean anything to him and he needed their votes to get rid of Torunaga.

 

[IFR]

28 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I've watched episode 2. There is one thing I'm a bit confused on

  Hide contents

Why did Ishido feel like he was forced to acquiesce to the Christian lords' demand that Blackthorne be executed? Does he hate Christians and/or the Portuguese? Blackthorne shouldn't really mean anything to him and he needed their votes to get rid of Torunaga.

 

Spoiler

There's a power stalement between the four even with Toranaga out of the way. Ishido knows that the Christian lords will conspire to thwart him if he doesn't concede them in this, and he cannot force their vote against Toranaga. He would be put in a very precarious position, when right now he has all the power.

But he is also aware that the Christian lords will conspire against him eventually anyway, and so he makes plans with Yabu to save Blackthorne. He believes Toranaga's death is all but certain anyway, and he knows Blackthorne will be very useful. So he commands that Blackthorne be killed, but through Yabu he has "bandits" attack Blackthorne's executioners. This way Ishido loses face, but cannot be accused of defying the Christian lords: he simply is seen as careless.

Meanwhile, while Blackthorne is now in Toranaga's custody, Ishido is confident Toranaga will soon die and Ishido will have his hands on Blackthorne.

So in essence, Ishido is very much working in opposition to the Christian lords, but he wants to choose his time to strike.

 

Edited February 28 by IFR

[Corvinus85]

14 minutes ago, IFR said:

  Hide contents

There's a power stalement between the four even with Toranaga out of the way. Ishido knows that the Christian lords will conspire to thwart him if he doesn't concede them in this, and he cannot force their vote against Toranaga. He would be put in a very precarious position, when right now he has all the power.

But he is also aware that the Christian lords will conspire against him eventually anyway, and so he makes plans with Yabu to save Blackthorne. He believes Toranaga's death is all but certain anyway, and he knows Blackthorne will be very useful. So he commands that Blackthorne be killed, but through Yabu he has "bandits" attack Blackthorne's executioners. This way Ishido loses face, but cannot be accused of defying the Christian lords: he simply is seen as careless.

Meanwhile, while Blackthorne is now in Toranaga's custody, Ishido is confident Toranaga will soon die and Ishido will have his hands on Blackthorne.

So in essence, Ishido is very much working in opposition to the Christian lords, but he wants to choose his time to strike.

 

Spoiler

In what way does he think or know Blackthorne would be useful to him? This was basically Torunaga's play. He knew Blackthorne would cause a split between the Christian lords who are allied with the Portuguese and Ishido. What would Ishido gain from having Blackthorne? The information that Blackthorne possesses about the Portuguese is only revealed later.

The only thing Ishido tells Torunaga is that Blackthorne should be put on display for the entire empire. 

 

[IFR]

36 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

In what way does he think or know Blackthorne would be useful to him? This was basically Torunaga's play. He knew Blackthorne would cause a split between the Christian lords who are allied with the Portuguese and Ishido. What would Ishido gain from having Blackthorne? The information that Blackthorne possesses about the Portuguese is only revealed later.

The only thing Ishido tells Torunaga is that Blackthorne should be put on display for the entire empire. 

 

Spoiler

Keep in mind that if the Christian lords move against Ishido, they will have the Portugese and Spanish, as well as all their weapons and ships, on their side. Blackthorne is a foreigner who can provide an outlet for such means that is clearly as advanced as the Catholics, but Blackthorne is also a natural enemy - as a "heretic" - to the Christian lords. Ishido knows this much.

 

[sifth]

Saw the first episode. Man this show is such a breath of fresh air. I loved it.

[Corvinus85]

10 hours ago, IFR said:

  Hide contents

Keep in mind that if the Christian lords move against Ishido, they will have the Portugese and Spanish, as well as all their weapons and ships, on their side. Blackthorne is a foreigner who can provide an outlet for such means that is clearly as advanced as the Catholics, but Blackthorne is also a natural enemy - as a "heretic" - to the Christian lords. Ishido knows this much.

 

You're right

Spoiler

Blackthorne's continuous outbursts against the Catholics did cause a stir and word would have reached Ishido. Ishido even witnessed it when he came to Torunaga's hall and Blackthorne was taken away raging.

 

Edited February 28 by Corvinus85

[Werthead]

This is where real history is impacted:

Spoiler

Japanese traditionalists were not in love with Christianity spreading through Japan, so seizing on a split amongst Christians to show they are not all perfect is a useful thing. Also aligning with a potential rival power to Spain and Portugal to balance those powers is a useful move. In the real history (which Shogun is shadowing but not precisely following), Japan began aligning with the Netherlands as a source of weapons and trade without having to accept the Catholic missionaries insisted upon by Spain and Portugal. 

Ultimately we're counting down to the point, 33 years later, when Japan says fuck this noise and seals itself off from the outside world altogether (more or less).

 

[Heartofice]

Thought the first episode was excellent and I will absolutely be continuing to warch. If nothing else it is visually stunning, and would look good for a huge Hollywood blockbuster, for a tv show it’s remarkable.

If I had even one criticism it would be that the main British ‘pilot’ is doing a ‘Tom Hardy’. By that I mean he’s putting on an accent that seems larger than life and shouldn’t be coming out of his body. For a show that seems so concerned with being authentic, his accent seems very jarring. 
 

Otherwise, it’s great.

[Zorral]

23 hours ago, Werthead said:

This is where real history is impacted:

  Hide contents

Japanese traditionalists were not in love with Christianity spreading through Japan, so seizing on a split amongst Christians to show they are not all perfect is a useful thing. Also aligning with a potential rival power to Spain and Portugal to balance those powers is a useful move. In the real history (which Shogun is shadowing but not precisely following), Japan began aligning with the Netherlands as a source of weapons and trade without having to accept the Catholic missionaries insisted upon by Spain and Portugal. 

Ultimately we're counting down to the point, 33 years later, when Japan says fuck this noise and seals itself off from the outside world altogether (more or less).

 

Spoiler

Which strategies were used earlier by the kings and lords of Mbanza-Kongo in the 15th and early 16th centuries, when the Mani-Kongo converted almost immediately to the Church upon initial contact with the Portuguese.  He and his immediate successors expected to rely on Portuguese and the Pope's resources, powers, to blockade and defeat their challengers -- who generally did not convert, and held that against the Mani-Kongo as well as the rest of ther list of grievances, while wanting the power themselves. The end result was that Mbanza-Kongo got good and screwed, and within a very few decades the Portuguese ran it all, and slaved the region to their hearts content, making squillianscfrom the slave trade, which was instrumental in making the colony of Brasil a fabulous money maker.  It (now known as Angola) was too close to Europe -- Japan, with several, separated from such a European power by several oceans and continents east and west  fared better 2 centuries later by shutting itself off.

 

Edited February 29 by Zorral

[Iskaral Pust]

Good to hear this has started strongly.  I’ll wait until after our Spring Break vacation to start watching so that I won’t feel like I’m waiting for eps to drop.

[Mexal]

Love love love. As a huge fan of the book, this is brilliant so far. Beautifully filmed, acted and written. So good.

20 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Thought the first episode was excellent and I will absolutely be continuing to warch. If nothing else it is visually stunning, and would look good for a huge Hollywood blockbuster, for a tv show it’s remarkable.

If I had even one criticism it would be that the main British ‘pilot’ is doing a ‘Tom Hardy’. By that I mean he’s putting on an accent that seems larger than life and shouldn’t be coming out of his body. For a show that seems so concerned with being authentic, his accent seems very jarring. 
 

Otherwise, it’s great.

Im totally fine with Blackthorne being like this now. I suspect that as he understands and begins to appreciate Japan, he will also modulate his personality to become more moderate.

[Heartofice]

3 hours ago, Mexal said:

Im totally fine with Blackthorne being like this now. I suspect that as he understands and begins to appreciate Japan, he will also modulate his personality to become more moderate.

Is there a reason why his accent is such a caricature? Maybe there is, but it’s a little offputting.

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Mexal said:

As a huge fan of the book, this is brilliant so far. 

So, is the book as profanity-laced as the show? Not just Blackthorne, but the Japanese nobles use some pretty earthy language as well.

[IFR]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

So, is the book as profanity-laced as the show? Not just Blackthorne, but the Japanese nobles use some pretty earthy language as well.

There's quite a bit of profanity in the books. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 'fuck' is uttered, but everything else is. The show toned down on the racial pejoratives (lots of 'Japs' and 'Jappers' and other variations in the book).

It's worth listening to the official show podcast. There's quite a bit of interesting information. The crew took research for this show very seriously, and more attention to time accurate detail is observed than in the book.

An example is that the writers first wrote the screenplay in English, sent it off to a Japanese translation company, who after translating it sent it to a Japanese playwright who specialized in jidaigeki to make the dialogue period accurate, then it was sent back to retranslate that into English.

I noticed a difference in the show while watching it since the foreigners in the book are taught "wakarimasu" to indicate they understand, and in the show they are taught "kokoroemashita" and I was a little confused.

Edited March 1 by IFR

[DireWolfSpirit]

So if I understand the spoilers are to be 4 days for these episodes?

So no longer required for the first two episodes as of Saturday March 2.

My brother in law is from Osaka and much of the family visited before they moved to America.

Osaka castle seemed to greatly impress everyone. I hope (bil)Yoshi gets to enjoy these episodes

[Veltigar]

Watched the first two episodes and I understand why everyone has their panties in a bunch about it so far. It has the potential to be really, really good and even if it turns into a dud later on, the sumptuous costumes and sets do such an awesome job at representing the material culture of Japan in those days (at least according to my limited knowledge of the subject matter) that that alone is worth the time investment.

That being said, I do think I'm a bit more lukewarm on this series than most. Certain "historic" plot points annoy me, because they are quite clearly bullocks

Spoiler

I highly fucking doubt that no one in Japan had any idea of European nations existing outside of Portugal and Spain. Sure, they might not have had a world atlas with a neat overview, but even back then the world was far more interconnected than we give it credit. Japanese pirates were a known nuisance, so they definitely got out and about. 

Same thing for the Portuguese base in Macau. If it's really manned by thousands of ronin, than it's impossible that no one on the home islands has a clear idea about them.

 I also find some of the politics muddled, but I believe this aspect will clear up in time. Perhaps it could be improved with some tighter editing, for example in episode 2

Spoiler

Our future shogun assassin proofs his bed role before the attack takes place, despite having already exchanged sleeping quarters with Blackthorne. How quaint that he takes that precaution, especially since he then decides to stand on guard for the suicidal female assassin to get nicely sliced up.

I was also a bit annoyed by the fact that no Portuguese was spoken in the series. It's really a minor thing of course, since I understand that selling this show internationally with it featuring so much Japanese is already hard enough, but I do wish they had put some more effort into that part as well. Perhaps by having Blackthorne converse in Portuguese at first and then slowly transitioning to the "Portuguese-as-English" that this show is using.

Anyways, mostly minor gripes, I'm on board now. I'm actually doubting whether or not to read the book in between releases. It's long, but reads fast is what I have always heard and it does seem like something that would be right up my alley. 

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

That being said, I do think I'm a bit more lukewarm on this series than most. Certain "historic" plot points annoy me, because they are quite clearly bullocks

  Hide contents

I highly fucking doubt that no one in Japan had any idea of European nations existing outside of Portugal and Spain. Sure, they might not have had a world atlas with a neat overview, but even back then the world was far more interconnected than we give it credit. Japanese pirates were a known nuisance, so they definitely got out and about. 

Same thing for the Portuguese base in Macau. If it's really manned by thousands of ronin, than it's impossible that no one on the home islands has a clear idea about them.

I would think Japan really was fairly isolated from Europe in terms of knowledge, too. They might have known in general terms about Europeans, possibly had knowledge of the 'Romans' and such, but would not have known specifics about the various nations. The Japanese pirates only operated in the western Pacific and the adjacent seas and, in fact, because of them the Chinese had imposed a trade embargo with Japan, which means no other merchants would have been able to use Chinese routes to make contact with Japan. So the Portuguese were welcomed to a certain degree by the Japanese because they became a bridge of commerce with China. 

Europe had limited knowledge of Japan, too, up until the Portuguese and the Spanish arrived. For example, Marco Polo's account of Japan was mostly BS because he never went there, and it was based on stuff he might have learned in Mongol-ruled China (who had no love for the Japanese)

Regarding the show, all characters are made up but inspired loosely by real people. There was no Minowara family that once ruled Japan as shoguns etc. But the various historical backgrounds are correct, like the treaties Blackthorne referenced between Spain and Portugal. And these two nations, being at war with England, and the fact that Europe is on the cusp of the 30 year war, would have had ample reason to try to hide their commercial connections in the Far East.

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Watched the first two episodes and I understand why everyone has their panties in a bunch about it so far. It has the potential to be really, really good and even if it turns into a dud later on, the sumptuous costumes and sets do such an awesome job at representing the material culture of Japan in those days (at least according to my limited knowledge of the subject matter) that that alone is worth the time investment.

That being said, I do think I'm a bit more lukewarm on this series than most. Certain "historic" plot points annoy me, because they are quite clearly bullocks

  Hide contents

I highly fucking doubt that no one in Japan had any idea of European nations existing outside of Portugal and Spain. Sure, they might not have had a world atlas with a neat overview, but even back then the world was far more interconnected than we give it credit. Japanese pirates were a known nuisance, so they definitely got out and about. 

Same thing for the Portuguese base in Macau. If it's really manned by thousands of ronin, than it's impossible that no one on the home islands has a clear idea about them.

 I also find some of the politics muddled, but I believe this aspect will clear up in time. Perhaps it could be improved with some tighter editing, for example in episode 2

  Hide contents

Our future shogun assassin proofs his bed role before the attack takes place, despite having already exchanged sleeping quarters with Blackthorne. How quaint that he takes that precaution, especially since he then decides to stand on guard for the suicidal female assassin to get nicely sliced up.

 

I think Torunaga was clever. He likely suspected something was coming his way since 1) he successfully delayed the vote on his fate and 2) Blackthorne was really agitating the Christian powers. Him switching rooms with Blackthorne was strategic, as he now knows who the assassin came for. Unclear if Blackthorne's quarters were better guards outside by his men, considering how quickly Blackthorne bolted out of there and no one stopped him.

[Veltigar]

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think Torunaga was clever. He likely suspected something was coming his way since 1) he successfully delayed the vote on his fate and 2) Blackthorne was really agitating the Christian powers. Him switching rooms with Blackthorne was strategic, as he now knows who the assassin came for. Unclear if Blackthorne's quarters were better guards outside by his men, considering how quickly Blackthorne bolted out of there and no one stopped him.

You call it clever, I call it poor editing. What would Torunaga have done if the attack did not take place, just stand all night in Blackthorne's quarters without sleeping?

Clever would be switching rooms with Blackthorne (well not really, since he's putting both himself and Blackthorne, a supposedly valuable asset in danger, but I can wave that aside due to the fact that the show wants to involve its leads in the action) and then on hearing the noise make up his bed roll like he did. Or make up his bed roll like he did and sleep some place else. The fact that he did it before the attack was detected was just unfortunate editing.

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Regarding the show, all characters are made up but inspired loosely by real people. There was no Minowara family that once ruled Japan as shoguns etc. But the various historical backgrounds are correct, like the treaties Blackthorne referenced between Spain and Portugal. And these two nations, being at war with England, and the fact that Europe is on the cusp of the 30 year war, would have had ample reason to try to hide their commercial connections in the Far East.

 

When the bolded came up I scratched my head and called bull, but since the title of Shogun predates the period of this show by several centuries I had to look it up to be certain. 

As to European history, there too it seems the show has simplified matters a bit. After all, you write treaties, but I'm pretty sure that Blackthorne himself speaks only of one treaty on the show (presumably that of Tordesillas, since it is more well known than that of Zaragoza. They just lump the legal effects together). 

These are nit picks of course, but it's good to spot them.

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I would think Japan really was fairly isolated from Europe in terms of knowledge, too. They might have known in general terms about Europeans, possibly had knowledge of the 'Romans' and such, but would not have known specifics about the various nations. The Japanese pirates only operated in the western Pacific and the adjacent seas and, in fact, because of them the Chinese had imposed a trade embargo with Japan, which means no other merchants would have been able to use Chinese routes to make contact with Japan. So the Portuguese were welcomed to a certain degree by the Japanese because they became a bridge of commerce with China. 

Europe had limited knowledge of Japan, too, up until the Portuguese and the Spanish arrived. For example, Marco Polo's account of Japan was mostly BS because he never went there, and it was based on stuff he might have learned in Mongol-ruled China (who had no love for the Japanese)

Isolated sure, but the show at one point implies that the Japanese belief that the entirety of Europe falls under the flag of Portugal and Spain seems far-fetched. After all, there had been a Portuguese presence in Japan since 1543 (when a crew of sailors were shipwrecked there). Not all of these early incursions were carefully planned and at the same time, there were Japanese crews of pirates and merchants banging about in the adjacent seas. Knowledge, even erroneous knowledge, must have seeped through to the highest levels of government.

They could have easily phrased it as believing that only the Portuguese and Spanish had the ability to project power over such large distances instead of going for the white protestant saviour brings a big paradigm-busting dump of knowledge to the natives. The former is not too far off from the truth, since for a long time it had been mostly Portuguese, Spanish and Ottoman crews sailing the seas, with the protestant incursions only beginning quite recently.

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, Veltigar said:

As to European history, there too it seems the show has simplified matters a bit. After all, you write treaties, but I'm pretty sure that Blackthorne himself speaks only of one treaty on the show (presumably that of Tordesillas, since it is more well known than that of Zaragoza. They just lump the legal effects together). 

Yeah, Blackthorne said 70 years ago, which means that he was technically talking about Zaragoza, which only served to define the eastern boundary of influence between Spain and Portugal. Interestingly, the more famous Treaty of Tordesillas was in 1494, and at that time there were no Protestants. I suppose Zaragoza served as another reminder to the rest of Europe what Spain and Portugal had done, and by then Protestantism had risen and there were open conflicts. So maybe it can be interpreted that in Blacthorne's mind that stands as the main treaty.

5 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Isolated sure, but the show at one point implies that the Japanese belief that the entirety of Europe falls under the flag of Portugal and Spain seems far-fetched. After all, there had been a Portuguese presence in Japan since 1543 (when a crew of sailors were shipwrecked there). Not all of these early incursions were carefully planned and at the same time, there were Japanese crews of pirates and merchants banging about in the adjacent seas. Knowledge, even erroneous knowledge, must have seeped through to the highest levels of government.

They could have easily phrased it as believing that only the Portuguese and Spanish had the ability to project power over such large distances instead of going for the white protestant saviour brings a big paradigm-busting dump of knowledge to the natives. The former is not too far off from the truth, since for a long time it had been mostly Portuguese, Spanish and Ottoman crews sailing the seas, with the protestant incursions only beginning quite recently.

That is certainly what Blackthorne accuses the priest of, but at the same time Torunaga and others don't really react when he tells them he's from another country who is at war with Portugal. So they seemed to know that there had to be other countries, they just weren't aware of their power and influence.

And again, there was an embargo on Japanese goods imposed by China. And I'm not sure how much knowledge could Japanese society gain about Europe from Japanese pirates operating near China.

[Veltigar]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Yeah, Blackthorne said 70 years ago, which means that he was technically talking about Zaragoza, which only served to define the eastern boundary of influence between Spain and Portugal. Interestingly, the more famous Treaty of Tordesillas was in 1494, and at that time there were no Protestants. I suppose Zaragoza served as another reminder to the rest of Europe what Spain and Portugal had done, and by then Protestantism had risen and there were open conflicts. So maybe it can be interpreted that in Blacthorne's mind that stands as the main treaty.

That is certainly what Blackthorne accuses the priest of, but at the same time Torunaga and others don't really react when he tells them he's from another country who is at war with Portugal. So they seemed to know that there had to be other countries, they just weren't aware of their power and influence.

And again, there was an embargo on Japanese goods imposed by China. And I'm not sure how much knowledge could Japanese society gain about Europe from Japanese pirates operating near China.

The existence of a Portuguese base in Macau for instance :p