Shogun: More like Shogood (Spoilers 4 days post episode release, show spoilers only)

[Corvinus85]

Another great episode. If this show was only 8 episodes long considering how this one ended, I would have assumed they were going to rush the ending. But there are 4 more episodes. I have no idea what other twists will occur.

This episode may have felt a bit slow, though the plot was pushed forward, but it did brilliantly with giving us Ochiba's background and motivations. And the actress has such a creepy way of talking, she has the makings of a great antagonist.

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Particularly the scene with the play interposed with her memories of how she got from the daughter of the previous ruler to consort of the Taiko. 

 

[Zorral]

Ripped through the available episodes.  Cosmo Jarvis is channeling, of all people, Richard Burton, particularly the Burton of The Robe, Cleopatra, Camelot , Becket and Anne of A Thousand Days. Burton's voice and its timbre, his facial dispositions, he even looks rather like the younger Burton.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Richard_Burton_-_The_Robe.jpg

As Burton's exaggerated emotive style tended to latter 19th century theaters without microphones and so on, I haven't much liked it.

The female characters are dimensions more compelling than are the male figures, which means ultimately, though it's a pleasure to look at, the story lines feel as thin as the sliding paper shoji. The tension the novel generated isn't there.  OTOH, I know the story very well, so 

 

Edited March 30 by Zorral

[WarGalley]

Just finished episode 5 and am holding off on 6 to better pace myself because I am absolutely loving this show. I’m subscribing to Hulu as soon as I get home so I can watch the rest of the season (as I’m currently at an AirBnB where it’s on On Demand).

For the book readers, how does the overall pacing of the show feel given that the 10 episodes cover the entirety of the novel?

Edited March 30 by WarGalley

[Arakasi]

I read the book but so long ago I forgot the details. In my mind I compare it more to the real history which is more fresh in my memory. I guess the major thing is they’ve distanced Blackthorne more from Toranaga and Mariko, especially Toranaga. This is likely more realistic than the novel as a lord of his stature would not be buddies with a foreigner. They also seem to be taking away one big moment from the books that really integrated Blackthorne with the Japanese. It’s possible it still happens but it will be in a different order and they only have four episodes left with a good deal left to cover.

But in general the show has distanced itself from the classic Dances with Wolves type story where the western guy becomes native to the people he’s with. It’s more having him still be a stranger in this land.

Edited March 30 by Arakasi

[Arakasi]

Strong episode but I think they have diverged a decent amount from the book. It’s somewhat hard to predict how it ends. (Well other than the broad strokes) The main difference is that John is more an alien in this version and not just integrated with the Japanese.

Edited April 2 by Arakasi

[JGP]

I'm going to read the book after the season is complete, I think, see how it stacks up. But yea, good episode. Kinda sad, the one character's meeting with fate but not unexpected in the least. That craving set him up. 

Buntaro's conflict made my teeth grind, it's like he can't fathom any other way [go0O0o0ooO0 honorbound lol] but Omi... Omi needs to get fucking got.

 

 

And I still love Fuji. 

Edited April 2 by JGP

[Zorral]

18 hours ago, JGP said:

I'm going to read the book after the season is complete, I think, see how it stacks up

This episode seriously deviates from the book here, and presumably shall for the rest of the episodes.  

I wish the series had more episodes so the characterization was deeper and we could appreciate the political switches, backstabs and so on more -- more flesh so to speak.  Instead we have whole lot about 'relationships', which aren't very well fleshed out either.  I understand why the divergences have been made, but the 'stories' aren't very well presented.

Through non-centering the Europeans for this version of Shōgun, we've lost a lot of richness and depth of story and characters.  OTOH, likely many watchers of this series have a much greater familiarity with Japan's culture of the era -- or at least the cinematic interpretations of same -- so do not need a 'white' stand-in to receive info dumps.

[Corvinus85]

Characterization, relationships, and lore expositions have been very well done in this show. I'm not sure that it can be done any more than what they did without risking to turn the show into a slog.

And I'm not sure how you lose the richness and depth of the story when you expand the viewpoints instead of focusing on one. Maybe you lose the themes of mystery and discovery, though.

[Spockydog]

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Characterization, relationships, and lore expositions have been very well done in this show. I'm not sure that it can be done any more than what they did without risking to turn the show into a slog.

And I'm not sure how you lose the richness and depth of the story when you expand the viewpoints instead of focusing on one. Maybe you lose the themes of mystery and discovery, though.

I don't miss the massive walls of head-hopping text. Read this as a kid, before I learned how to write. I can't even pick it up now. Horrible reading experience. Would it even get published in that form these days?

 

[Zorral]

As commented, since the days of first pub of the novel people who like this sort of thing have been educated much further in all these matters (at least as fiction and other entertainments treat these matters).

Not to mention as well, for instance, productions such as NF's Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan, which Shogun has the same scenes of groups and armies marching in forests, for example, looking the same, all dark and shadowy, etc.  Lots of people, including some of us here, watched that and liked it very much, as we commented then.

OTOH, in the bookstores in Spain and in the airports, stacks and stacks of the novel are being sold currently.  The novel, like just about all of Clavell's works, are perennials in the public and university library systems that I use regularly, both as e-editions and print copies, and they're always all checked out.

Edited April 4 by Zorral

[Corvinus85]

Damn, this show continues to deliver some poignant brutal scenes.

[Myrddin]

I was finally getting set to subscribe to catch up when lo and behold! I get an email for a free month trial.

So, of course, we've binged the whole series to date in 4 days. Well, 3. My wife, who resisted watching it as she didn't care for the 80's version, about screamed when we finished episode 7 yesterday and she realized ep 8 hadn't dropped yet.

There was a real conversation about staying up to midnight to watch it, but I had to get up early to take my son to work.

 

Yeah, the show is amazing. While I know there is CGI all over the place, it's so well done and used to enhance rather than "be" the sets, it just feels like a peek into 1600 Japan. The care over the details is top notch. Toronaga is by far m favorite character. Hiroyuki Sanada has always been solid, and he just shines here with all the layers of his three hearts on display.

Edited April 10 by Myrddin

[karaddin]

This last episode was fucking superb. No notes other than

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Can't believe they managed to make me feel sorry for Buntaro lol. That's a terrible couple of days

 

[Zorral]

I was wondering if they'd ever get around to that

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tea ceremony.

I dunno.  Others in many venues write of how intensely they feel these scenes and circumstances.  Somehow, I fail to be moved. The book, at least upon first reading, did affect me a lot.  But this television series doesn't have me invested in anyone or in the events.  Is that because I already know how it all turns out?

[Mexal]

12 hours ago, Zorral said:

I was wondering if they'd ever get around to that

  Hide contents

tea ceremony.

I dunno.  Others in many venues write of how intensely they feel these scenes and circumstances.  Somehow, I fail to be moved. The book, at least upon first reading, did affect me a lot.  But this television series doesn't have me invested in anyone or in the events.  Is that because I already know how it all turns out?

Yea, this isn't me. I feel the scenes, get the characters and felt the pure pain that Buntoro felt in that moment. I also felt Toronaga's pain at Hiromatsu. This show hits me in all the right spots, an adaptation of a beloved book that just hits all the right marks. I cannot stress how much I love this show.

[Ran]

Some very interesting departures from the book, I have to say, especially

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Hiromatsu

I do wonder at the consistency of Mariko's character, though. Up to this latest episode, we understood her desire for death as being due to the infamy of her father and the shame it brought on her. But to Buntaro, she says it's being married to him that makes her want to die, and she'd be willing to live a thousand years rather than die together with hmim.

It seemed pretty honest and legitimate, not just something calculated, but if so it's  a complete change regarding her feelings as recently as the previous episode.

 

[Corvinus85]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Some very interesting departures from the book, I have to say, especially

  Reveal hidden contents

Hiromatsu

I do wonder at the consistency of Mariko's character, though. Up to this latest episode, we understood her desire for death as being due to the infamy of her father and the shame it brought on her. But to Buntaro, she says it's being married to him that makes her want to die, and she'd be willing to live a thousand years rather than die together with hmim.

It seemed pretty honest and legitimate, not just something calculated, but if so it's  a complete change regarding her feelings as recently as the previous episode.

 

She still wants to die because of the pain of losing her family and the shame, but not on Buntaro's terms. He only wanted to do it now because of the situation at hand and to continue to possess hus wife all the way to the end.

[Ran]

Yes, that makes more sense. I need to rewatch the scene.

Edited April 10 by Ran

[Mexal]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

She still wants to die because of the pain of losing her family and the shame, but not on Buntaro's terms. He only wanted to do it now because of the situation at hand and to continue to possess hus wife all the way to the end.

That was my interpretation too. And you heard it from Hiromatsu to Buntaro when he said "now you understand what it's like to be denied". It's clear she still wanted to die, just not with Buntaro.

Edited April 10 by Mexal

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

It seemed pretty honest and legitimate, not just something calculated, but if so it's  a complete change regarding her feelings as recently as the previous episode.

The reading I took away from that is that her aversion to the man whom her father married her to for political/power reasons is so great that she will not go into death-eternity in his company.

If / when she dies it will be for HER honor, not to fulfill her detested husband's pathetically transparent plot to have her dead, even if he dies himself, to ensure she never lives at the side of anyone else.  If / when she dies at her own hand, it will be because she is no longer obligated by her honor and fidelity to Toranaga, because either he has released her from that or he's dead himself.  If the latter, she shall surely die too, as will all his followers, but that is honorable.  It is something she herself believes in.  Her husband ... he makes her very skin crawl.

So, not a change, just that the writers put the emphasis in her response for the viewer on her refusal to die with Buntaro rather than on her loyalty to her lord Toranaga.  Also, this way, the viewer sees an aspect of how a woman in this culture wages that "to be a woman is to be war".  The words she so carefully chose and spoke as her refusal just killed her detested husband, and she knew it would.