Shogun: More like Shogood (Spoilers 4 days post episode release, show spoilers only)

[Zorral]

One of the large departures from the book, btw, with the choice to center and feature Japan and Japanese, not Europe and Europeans is -- at least so far --

Spoiler

far fewer segments with either the Portuguese or Blackthorne and his crew, or the longer Blackthorne acclimates or at least learns of the Japanese ruling classes, how his disgust and aversion to the look of, the smell of, the behaviors of his crew grow.  He reconsiders often Europeans and their cities -- including his wife, whom at the start of all this he misses very much.

I don't miss any of this, because, indeed, 

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the crew is disgusting. Nor do they play any role in what happens after what we saw in the first episode.  Though we see them more in the novel, they don't have agency in anything that happens.  In fact, it turns out that Blackthorne, despite being centered in the novel, whose pov is ours, who does all sorts of things, has no agency either.

I admire that this production dramatizes this in a way that perhaps young, inexperienced, first readers of the novel may not notice.  I was a young, inexperienced and ignorant first reader,

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but I did notice that, so the ending left me rather puzzled because this is not how I was conditioned as to how novels are supposed to end!

 

[Ser Not Appearing]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:41 PM, karaddin said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Can't believe they managed to make me feel sorry for Buntaro lol. That's a terrible couple of days

 

 

100%

[Corvinus85]

Anna Sawai shone in the latest episode.

[Dawn Vibration]

Looks like I am 2 episodes behind. So far though I am enjoying the hell out of it.

[Spockydog]

11 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Anna Sawai shone in the latest episode.

It's basically her show. She's amazing.

 

[Ran]

Very strong penultimate episode. I know GGK is watching the show, or at least he was when it started airing, but there were passages in this episode that reminded me of his work, and makes me wonder if Clavell was any sort of influence on him. (Kay's a much, much better prosodist, of course.)

[Zorral]

Despite what it is, for all the should be intensity of the scenes, it all feels flat and unimpressive, to me.  Also continuity -- the whys of things -- are missing, i.e. all those long expository musings and explanations by and to Blackthorne in the book had purpose.  For instance

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from whom is Mariko running away for the third time and why in that flashback? If it is the Jesuits, why was she with them? How was she placed with them, and thus will gain such Portuguese fluency?  This is how she becomes Christian, obviously, but we don't see a thing as to why she became such a believer, or at least enough of one there was a conflict in her regarding killing herself as Samurai honor demands and Christianity condemns to eternal hellfire.

 

[Zorral]

Does anyone know, if back in the day, when Clavell's novel was published, were there pieces like this written comparing and contrasting the fiction with the history?

FACT VS. FICTION 11:44 A.M.
The Real History Behind Shōgun’s Final Sacrifice By Nicholas Liu

https://www.vulture.com/article/shogun-mariko-death-true-story-gracia-history-explained.html

.

Quote

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... Mariko’s historical counterpart, Hosokawa Gracia, also met a dramatic end. Twenty-four years before she was christened Gracia and 16 years before she married Hosokawa Tadaoki (the inspiration for Shōgun’s Buntaro), Akechi Tama was born in 1563 to the warlord Akechi Mitsuhide, whose betrayal of his liege lord Oda Nobunaga in 1582 forever tainted her as a traitor’s daughter. And in 1600, she died a similarly violent death when Ishida Mitsunari (Ishido in Shōgun) attempted to take her hostage in a bid for leverage in his war against Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga). But while the arc of Mariko’s life and death reflects that of Gracia, it is not an exact mirror. Here’s how “Crimson Sky” abridges and combines elements of the historical record in the name of dramatic license. ....

 

 

Edited April 17 by Zorral

[Dawn Vibration]

Finally caught up, episode 9 was intense. No clue how they are gonna wrap everything up in one episode. Guessing we wont see the big battle.

[Arakasi]

Well there wasn’t in the books either so that’s not a divergence.

[Zorral]

11 minutes ago, Dawn Vibration said:

Finally caught up, episode 9 was intense. No clue how they are gonna wrap everything up in one episode. Guessing we wont see the big battle.

See how conditioned we are as to how entertainment/fiction is supposed to work?  My very young self reading the novel was quite -- bewildered.

[Jaxom 1974]

This show is absolutely exemplifies everything that's wrong with the whole idea of a show being only 10 epsiodes for a season. It's wrong because I want more.  I've not read the book (yet), and it seems, based on comments above, there's been some divergence? But is one more episode enough to wrap this up? My goodness this show is so good.

(The Kay comment above was also apt, I thought)

[karaddin]

Thank god it wasn't restricted to 8eps like almost everything has been lately. Would love more as well, its just fantastic.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Why have 22 episode television seasons died out  really enjoying this show !

[Arakasi]

Spoiler

So while I’ve liked this show quite a lot and thought the last episode was a step up I think there is one major issue with the show compared to the books. Basically it’s that Blackthorne and Mariko just isn’t working in the tv show. 
 

Like the first three episodes were great and seemed to be building their relationship. Then they had their sex but then Mariko is all I don’t want to be with you and the next 3 episodes I felt dithered. I enjoyed them but it felt like very little happened and they kind of just futzed around. It’s gotten better again in episodes 8-9 and I presume 10 but 5-7 were really slow and at times boring.

Also if hostages were such a big thing here I wish they’d have seeded that discussion a bit earlier in a better way.

Anyway I still really enjoy the series but I think it has pacing issues and a weird relationship between John and Mariko that hurt the show and hurt a bit the stuff in episode nine here.

 

[Werthead]

12 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Why have 22 episode television seasons died out  really enjoying this show !

The 22 episode model worked when audiences were willing to accept low-budget shows airing year round with ridiculous gaps for repeats. 22 episodes were needed so they could get to syndication within 4 seasons, and selling advert slots in the shows paid for them.

That's not really the case any more. The streaming argument is that more than 8 episodes doesn't make sense economically, and with 8 episodes with movie-quality CGI it just takes a huge amount of time and effort and money to make them. Some recent network genre experiments failing (like the new Quantum Leap) seem to have reinforced their arguments.

[Jaxom 1974]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

The 22 episode model worked when audiences were willing to accept low-budget shows airing year round with ridiculous gaps for repeats. 22 episodes were needed so they could get to syndication within 4 seasons, and selling advert slots in the shows paid for them.

That's not really the case any more. The streaming argument is that more than 8 episodes doesn't make sense economically, and with 8 episodes with movie-quality CGI it just takes a huge amount of time and effort and money to make them. Some recent network genre experiments failing (like the new Quantum Leap) seem to have reinforced their arguments.

Until it all backfires and curves back again.  There should be room for both in this world. 

Also, the inability of streaming services to let a series grow beyond a couple seasons more often than not, is also a mark against the model also, in my mind. 

 

And I just thought I'd see about maybe picking up a copy of Shogun at the local B&N, since it should be available again with show interest...only they're selling it in Book 1 and Book 2...ha.

Edited April 19 by Jaxom 1974

[Zorral]

That ... that is shitty, and gouging.

https://www.amazon.com/Shōgun-Complete-Novel-James-Clavell/dp/B0CMYP5HQ7

In Spain stacks of them were being sold in the bookstores, but in a single volume, just like the original was -- in paperback, no less.

Of course, nowadays in the USA, with print book production being so cramped (publishers outsourced that long ago to Asian countries) books this big are really hard to get contracts for within any sort of timely fashion..

Edited April 19 by Zorral

[Arakasi]

I kinda want to read it again. Problem I think with any adaptation of the history is that I know the history well and how the book makes Tokugawa very different is always hard to get around. Plus I was always a Takeda and Hideyoshi fanboy (read Taiko it’s great) so I was never predisposed to like Tokugawa much.

Like it’s hard to watch this and hear him swearing over and over to protect the Taikos son when in real history he’s the one responsible for killing him.

Edited April 19 by Arakasi

[Heartofice]

Only just caught up on the latest episode. Wow! This really reminds me of early stage GoT in that it's twists and turns and performances keep me on the edge of my seat and I think about it for a week between each episode. 

Anna Sawai was epic in this episode, if writers want to find an example of a good, strong female character, you have one right here. Pay attention Disney.

 

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I'm going to miss her, not only was she the central core of the show so far, but she is incredibly easy on the eye!