US politics - Yes country for old men

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Support for Israel is popular, so is support for a ceasefire.

Just to back this up a bit: recent polling indicates about 2/3rds of people in the US support a ceasefire:

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/2/27/voters-support-the-us-calling-for-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel

Interesting to me is that for the most part democrats approve of Biden's handling and Republicans are the ones who are most strongly disapproving, though what Biden could have done to gain the approval there is a bit odd. 

15 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Huh.  I wonder what the hivemind here would think about that.  What does it mean to be a pro Israel Dem voter,?  Im pro Israel in that I support their right to exist.  

If you want to take that cynical view, do your really think that Dem voters who are more pro Israel are going to vote for the guy who has no problem criminalizing abortion, putting the Bible in schools, etc?

I don't think there are a lot of voters who view Israel as their single most important issue but they certainly do exist. That said most of them are likely to be in the Republican camp already. And cynically, those who aren't voting Republican now almost certainly live in states that their loss won't matter. 

Mostly, I would say that for most voters (R and D alike) Israel and Palestine are not their most important or even top 5 issue unless the war somehow affects them directly. Same is true for Ukraine, same was true for Afghanistan. Unfortunately for Biden the people who consider it their #1 issue also have a large presence in a number of swing states. So...maybe it's better for Biden to go harder towards those voters?

Because it ain't like California or New York are going Trump any time soon. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just reminder that mormont shut down a US politics thread, because he was tired of moderating/refereeing another Israel-Gaza discussion. Personally, I have avoided the respective threads like the plague, so I am bravely hiding behind that precedent. As I am also not particularly eager to get drawn into a Palestine debate. That I'd avoid the genocide term was more a general remark. Which is as far as I am willing to discuss that sorry affair.

To get back into the more relevant US pol discussion...

...where would pro Israel Democrat voters go, and would they vote Trump. It depends how high Israel is on their priority list, and I would also worry more about down ticket voting (arguably more so). Israel's right to exist also includes to guarantee the safety of its citizens on its territory. (curse you, I really don't want to get drawn into this discussion!). Cutting financial aid for that is not gonna go down too well with parts of Biden's base. A bit hyperbolically put. Biden has the choice of pissing off either his Jewish or his muslim voters. Cynical view: one of them as a stronger lobby. There's no easy solution for this dilemma for Biden. People in your bubble might feel differently about what Biden should do, then other groups.

 

Closing remark on my part. The sorta latent anti-semitism on the left, when they talk about Israel is to some extent real. This includes applying other/higher/different standards to Israel, than to other states. Not saying you are doing this, but it's something you (or anybody else) should be aware of. And in all those discussions, if you have to tread a very fine line. That is even more true for the bloody POTUS. Oh, and the reflexive accusation of both siderism, which I have seen on other boards, is not a good idea.

But really, let's keep Israel out of the US politics threads.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, maarsen said:

Curtailment of expression? Cuba was run by a fascist dictator for the benefit of the American businesses and Mafia there before Castro. 

Indeed, "communist" revolutions generally don't happen in countries that enjoy reasonable prosperity and political freedoms under a reasonable approximation of democracy among the vast majority of people. Neither do religious extremist revolutions, cough cough Iran.

If the USA gets Christian Nationalism running the country some day it won't be because most Americans were happy with their lot in life.

[karaddin]

The Uvalde investigation determining the cops followed policy there is about as damning of their policy as I can think of. Our policy is to be useless shits and that's what we achieved.

[kissdbyfire]

Great job on the SotU. Repugs will not be happy. I particularly enjoyed Kavanaugh’s landscape look and Robert’s sad face when Biden had a dig at SCOTUS.

And dem reps and senators and cabinet members did their part, too. 
 

And  Mike Johnson nodding along behind Biden! 

 

Edited March 8 by kissdbyfire

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I have an odd question… wasn’t Trump’s first impeachment brought for threatening to withhold Congressional authorized aid too Ukraine?

[kissdbyfire]

46 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have an odd question… wasn’t Trump’s first impeachment brought for threatening to withhold Congressional authorized aid too Ukraine?

Didn’t he threaten that as a way to twist Ukraine’s arm into “finding” dirt on Biden? Weren’t there 2 charges, abuse of power and something else?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Didn’t he threaten that as a way to twist Ukraine’s arm into “finding” dirt on Biden? Weren’t there 2 charges, abuse of power and something else?

Yes… but one of the keys was Trump refusing to send aid after that had been approved by Congress… wasn’t it?

[Derfel Cadarn]

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Didn’t he threaten that as a way to twist Ukraine’s arm into “finding” dirt on Biden? Weren’t there 2 charges, abuse of power and something else?

If I remember, Trump wanted Zelenskyy to announce they were investigating Hunter Biden’s dealings in Ukraine. Not sure if he cared whether any investigation took llace, just wanted thr ‘smoke’

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes… but one of the keys was Trump refusing to send aid after that had been approved by Congress… wasn’t it?

 

1 minute ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

If I remember, Trump wanted Zelenskyy to announce they were investigating Hunter Biden’s dealings in Ukraine. Not sure if he cared whether any investigation took llace, just wanted thr ‘smoke’

Yeah, that’s what I meant and failed to express properly. He threatened to withhold stuff that had gone through congress already if Zelensky didn’t say they were looking into Biden regardless of whether there was an actual investigation or not. And then he was impeached for abuse of power and… I wanna say some type of obstruction charge? That’s what I remember, but hey, I barely remember what I had for breakfast today, so take it with a bucket of salt! 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Yeah, that’s what I meant and failed to express properly. He threatened to withhold stuff that had gone through congress already if Zelensky didn’t say they were looking into Biden regardless of whether there was an actual investigation or not. And then he was impeached for abuse of power and… I wanna say some type of obstruction charge? That’s what I remember, but hey, I barely remember what I had for breakfast today, so take it with a bucket of salt! 

My point is this… if Trump was impeached for seeking to withhold aid that had previously been authorized by Congress… does a President… any President… have individual discretion or authority to unilaterally withhold aid once that aid has legally been authorized?

Edited March 8 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

My point is this… if Trump was impeached for seeking to withhold aid that had previously been authorized by Congress… does a President… any President… have individual discretion or authority to unilaterally withhold aid once that aid has legally been authorized?

Gotcha. Wouldn’t it work differently depending on how the congress approved it? Like, if it’s a bill the president can veto it, right? And then congress can override the veto? But I have no idea if something like this, approved aid, would be passed on a bill or by some other mechanism?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Gotcha. Wouldn’t it work differently depending on how the congress approved it? Like, if it’s a bill the president can veto it, right? And then congress can override the veto? But I have no idea if something like this, approved aid, would be passed on a bill or by some other mechanism?

Veto… absolutely.  My question is about after passage and signing.  Would any President, given the rationale for Trump’s impeachment, have authority to unilaterally threaten to withhold or withdraw ongoing aid after it has been legally authorized?

Edited March 8 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Veto… absolutely.  My question is about after passage and signing.  Would any President, given the rationale for Trump’s impeachment, have authority to unilaterally threaten to withhold or withdraw ongoing aid after it has been legally authorized?

I suppose it depends on how congress approved it. Are there methods of approving things like aid other than passing bills? A bill can be vetoed, but I have no idea whether there are other mechanisms that wouldn’t be subjected to a presidential veto.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suppose it depends on how congress approved it. Are there methods of approving things like aid other than passing bills? A bill can be vetoed, but I have no idea whether there are other mechanisms that wouldn’t be subjected to a presidential veto.

You are missing my distinction.  If the aid is proposed as a bill the President can Veto.  I’m asking about ongoing aid after the bill has been adopted the Congress (both the House and Senate) and signed by the President… does any President (given Trump’s impeachment for unilaterally withholding such aid) ever have the authority to unilaterally withhold previously approved aid?

Edited March 8 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Gorn]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You are missing my distinction.  If the aid is proposed as a bill the President can Veto.  I’m asking about ongoing aid after the bill has been adopted the Congress (both the House and Senate) and signed by the President… does any President (given Trump’s impeachment for unilaterally withholding such aid) ever have the authority to unilaterally withhold previously approved aid?

Of course they do, approved funds end up unspent all the time. Lend-Lease for Ukraine was approved, but it wasn't used.

The actual reason why Trump was impeached because he used withholding of aid as a weapon against domestic political opponents. It was about the motives for withholding funds, not about the act of withholding itself.

Edited March 8 by Gorn

[Martell Spy]

State of the Union response: ‘One of our biggest disasters’
The 42-year-old Alabama senator is a rising Republican star but her kitchen table speech did not land well even in her own party

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/08/katie-britt-sotu-reaction

Quote

As a Gallup poll showed 57% of American voters think the US would be better off if more women were in elected office, Alyssa Farah Griffin, a Trump aide turned never-Trumper, said: “Senator Katie Britt is a very impressive person … I do not understand the decision to put her in a KITCHEN for one of the most important speeches she’s ever given.”

Speaking to CNN, Griffin added: “The staging of this was bizarre to me. Women can be both wives and mothers and also stateswomen, so to put her in a kitchen, not at a podium or in the Senate chamber where she was elected after running a hard-fought race, I think fell very flat and was completely confusing to some women watching it.”

 

 

[LongRider]

Developing story:

Former President Donald Trump has secured a $91,630,000 bond for the judgment in his defamation case brought by the writer E. Jean Carroll.

Trump secures $91 million bond for judgment in E. Jean Carroll defamation case (msn.com)

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

State of the Union response: ‘One of our biggest disasters’
The 42-year-old Alabama senator is a rising Republican star but her kitchen table speech did not land well even in her own party

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/08/katie-britt-sotu-reaction

 

That’s just how republicans celebrate Women’s Day, it’s one of their most enduring fantasies. It makes perfect sense when you think that this bloke is not a lone, solitary republican voter. 
 

 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

59 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Developing story:

Former President Donald Trump has secured a $91,630,000 bond for the judgment in his defamation case brought by the writer E. Jean Carroll.

Trump secures $91 million bond for judgment in E. Jean Carroll defamation case (msn.com)

That he could get the money for that (either posting it himself, or get the Adelsons or even Musk to) is not that surprising. More interesting will be the question whether he could get the over 400m for the NY AG civil fraud case. I mean forking over 90m for Adelson's widow is one thing, 500m is a diferent story.