Meanings of non-named chapters?

[Sandy Clegg]

I was reading some old GRRM interviews and came across this gem:

From the fourth book you have been uncovering some chapters with nicknames, like ‘The Prophet’ or ‘The Kraken’s Daughter’. Why do you do that?

Well… [Thinks for a long time with an enigmatic smile] I don’t know if you know Gene Wolfe, one of the best science fiction and fantasy writers, in my opinion. Well, his work is full of puzzles and enigmas and you have to put a lot of attention on what he is saying. I remember one day I asked him: “Why do you use that? Is there a deeper reason beyond?” And he didn’t say anything at the beginning. He just smiled me ironically and said to me: “What do you think it means?” And I told him my theories. Then, he answered: “Interesting…” [Laughs]. That’s all you're gonna get out of me, but I have to say this is not an accident [Laughs].

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Two things:

a) It's good to know that deep down GRRM is just one of us, and has had his own obsessions with puzzles in other fantasy works.  

b) any thoughts on what deeper reasons may lie beyond  the titles such as 'The Prophet', etc?

[sifth]

To be honest, the most interesting of these characters I find is Victarion. So far he's the only POV character to go from a "insert title", to actually having his name featured as a main character. He's the Iron Suitor in his first chapter and Victarion in his second chapter in ADWD.

What makes this even more interesting is learning from Gsteff's notes, that Victarion was suppose to die, in both AFFC and ADWD, but GRRM keeps changing his mind. For me, it makes Moqorro, feel like GRRM creating a character, who is an insert for himself, when he saves Vic's life and see's into the future better than any character.

[Aebram]

I've seen this question discussed here before, and I don't think anyone has a theory that covers all the chapters. I've given some thought to it myself, and I've noticed, not one, but two patterns in the usage of these non-character titles.

One pattern is chapters where the character is being someone other than their normal self. For example, Sansa is the character in some chapters titled "Alayne." Our little ninja-in-training, Arya, has chapters titled "Cat of the Canals," "The Blind Girl," and "The Ugly Little Girl." And Theon during his Reek phase has chapters titled "The Turncloak" and "A Ghost in Winterfell."

The other pattern is chapters where the POV character is not really the one that the chapter is about; instead, he or she is serving as a "walking camera" to reveal something about another character. For instance, in "The Captain of Guards," the POV character is Areo Hotah, but it seems that the chapter is mostly focused on Doran Martell and his family.

However, neither of these patterns covers all the chapters; and at any rate, it doesn't seem likely that the George would create two different patterns rather than just one. All of the non-character titles occur in Books 4 and 5, and the preview chapters of 6; there are no Arya chapters titled "Arry" or "Weasel." So apparently this is something he started after he had been writing for quite a while already.

That's about all I have so far. Perhaps these thoughts will help someone else to solve this puzzle.

[Hippocras]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

To be honest, the most interesting of these characters I find is Victarion. So far he's the only POV character to go from a "insert title", to actually having his name featured as a main character. He's the Iron Suitor in his first chapter and Victarion in his second chapter in ADWD.

What makes this even more interesting is learning from Gsteff's notes, that Victarion was suppose to die, in both AFFC and ADWD, but GRRM keeps changing his mind. For me, it makes Moqorro, feel like GRRM creating a character, who is an insert for himself, when he saves Vic's life and see's into the future better than any character.

I like this idea about Moqorro. Sometimes GRRM is very charming in his determination to just have fun.

Is The Iron suitor the chapter where we learn about Euron's Valyrian steel armour? It might be a word play.

 

EDIT:

I checked and it does not seem to be. BUT, it is Euron that has the VS armour, and Vic has regular armour. So still could be some kind of word play on the similarity between "suit" and "suitor". Getting tinfoily but maybe Vic is destined to become a "suit" himself in the way the FM use other bodies...

In Vic's previous chapter, the Reaver, Vic hatches his plot to take Dany for himself. He does not want to be "given" the Seastone chair (not the true Ironborn way) for doing as Euron asks. So there is a bit of word play there anyway.

Edited March 18 by Hippocras

[Castellan]

20 minutes ago, Aebram said:

One pattern is chapters where the character is being someone other than their normal self. For example, Sansa is the character in some chapters titled "Alayne." Our little ninja-in-training, Arya, has chapters titled "Cat of the Canals," "The Blind Girl," and "The Ugly Little Girl." And Theon during his Reek phase has chapters titled "The Turncloak" and "A Ghost in Winterfell."

I had noted this pattern of 'identity'- which starts in AFFC and continues in ADWD - and saw the rest simply as chapters that cover the Ironborn and the Dornish, who are introduced in these books. Having these titles made them seem temporary or extra somehow. Also, at least in AFFC, they tend to have only one or two chapters each. And they're giving different angles on the same events - the Kingsmoot in one, and Arianne's foolish Queenmaking foray in the other. So no real need for numbering by POV.

However, I then realised that a lot of the Ironborn and Dornish chapters could also be seen as about changing identity e.g. Quentyn's are The Merchants Man where he plays the role of a servant to Gerris Drinkwater, then the WIndblown where his group has joined a mercenary company under false names in order to continue their journey, but are then instructed to go to Meereen; then The Spurned Suitor and finally, poignantly, The Dragon Tamer.

I think the titles do actually add to the atmosphere of the books. I suspect he would think of them that way, too. I doubt he thinks or says "I am writing Tyrion XIX" now but thinks of them by shorthand - like "The Princess in the Tower" and "The Queenmaker".

[Hippocras]

@Castellan

I am loosely speculating now on this temporary identity theme combined with word play and the methods of the Faceless Men (Arya being the character to make the most use of such names).

In the Dragon Tamer, Quentyn obviously failed to tame a dragon. But a tiny moment that slides past without notice is that Viserion was initially interested in Pretty Meris. Maybe she is the actual dragon tamer the chapter introduces. We already know I think anyway that Viserion's destiny is different from that of Rhaegal. Pretty Meris being something like Hugh Hammer would be an interesting way to bring a dragon to a different side in the final conflicts.

 

Connecting this previous discussion for reference:

 

 

Edited March 18 by Hippocras

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Connecting this previous discussion for reference:

Thanks.

@aceluby actually mentioned an interesting idea in that thread:

Quote

What if the names have nothing to do w/ the current crop of characters, but actually refer to past characters and parallels between what's currently happening and past events? Kind of like telling the story of Aerys, Rhaegar, etc... through the titles of the chapters. Lots of those titles could refer to events during RR, but not all of them... yet.

I mean, GRRM is pretty evasive in that original interview. I feel like if the point of the non-named titles was something broadly thematic, like 'this is just how these POV characters see themselves' then GRRM would just come right out and say it, as that's kind of a non-spoilery interpretation. But instead he draws that link to Gene Wolfe and mentions his enigmas and puzzles, which leads me think there might be something more along the lines of what @aceluby proposes, above.

I know nothing about Gene Wolfe but I might give him a try. His fans, by the way, seem to not only struggle with meaning in his books in much the same way as we do with ASOIAF, but some of the analysis they produce feels like PhD material compared to what we see on these forums! This is from a random search I made when looking for an overview of 'Gene Wolfe enigmas and puzzles'

Pirate Freedom seems to have escaped much of the exegetical explosion that An Evil Guest received on the Urth mailing list for Wolfe enthusiasts, even though both books involve reality distortion and time travel (well, I think there’s some type of reality distortion in Pirate Freedom), fictional devices that admit no logical limits on narrative analyses. His latest, The Sorcerer’s House, certainly has reality-distortion (alternate realities in the form of the venerable faerie-land and also in the possibly demented imagination of one of the main focal characters); there’s also at least putative differential time-flow, though this is only considered time-travel by the scrupulous. 

https://jgoodwin.net/blog/gene-wolfes-the-sorcerers-house-or-why-i-like-puzzle-box-fiction/

Makes my head hurt 

Back to my original point - I do like the idea that there are echoes of the past rippling through the current story, and that GRRM lets us glimpse these echoes through various means including chapter headings. I'm just not sure I can draw those parallels to any specific events, like Robert's Rebellion. 

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, Aebram said:

However, neither of these patterns covers all the chapters; and at any rate, it doesn't seem likely that the George would create two different patterns rather than just one. All of the non-character titles occur in Books 4 and 5, and the preview chapters of 6; there are no Arya chapters titled "Arry" or "Weasel." So apparently this is something he started after he had been writing for quite a while already.

It does feel like the intuitive answer is that 'these characters are not fully themselves', but I agree this isn't consistent. Self-actualisation comes with getting a 'named' chapter is a also a common idea, but the old thread brought up the Jon Connington inconsistency in this regard:

Quote

This does seem like the most logical explanation, but it makes me wonder though, why is Jon Connington's last chapter called a griffin reborn, and not just Jon Connington? Theon had his process of getting his personality back, but his last chapter was just Theon. Same goes for Victarion. 

Shouldn't he be called by his name at this point to? Or because he's still keeping up appereances and making it look like they're just rebels/pirates raiding the shores he's still got some describing name. 

As said, Melisandre doesn't need a change of name because she's at every point very much aware of who she is. But I also think it's because she moves from being a very prominent secundairy character to an essentail player in the war against the others which will happen soon.

So, I'm wondering if this isn't part of a pattern-breaking clue by GRRM. We pretty much expect these 'newer' POVs to all have specialised chapter titles, or that getting their own name back is a sign of them becoming fully who they are again. But JonCon doesn't get his name at the top, even though he's seemingly embraced his true identity at this point and is no longer Griff. Perhaps the greyscale coursing through his body prevents this?

Likewise, Melisandre has only one single chapter, yet her name is front and centre. Surely if the pattern holds, her chapter should have been called 'The Fiery Priestess' or similar. The fact that it wasn't named as such may signal some 'strength of will' on her part. Or has the pattern not been broken, and we are meant to read the name 'Melisandre' as being a 'title' much as 'The Prophet' or 'The Reaver'? We do glimpse a memory of 'Melony, lot 7' indicating that this used to be her real name, making 'Melisandre' a kind of identity story she has created for herself.

[sifth]

For what it's worth, I believe the sample Arianne Martell chapters, for WoW feature her name and not "insert title". Naturally this could change for the final book, but I get the feeling she'll be given a bigger role in that book, since she'll basically be our eyes into the Faegon camp and possibly even marry him. I know we already have JonCon as our eyes in that camp, but his life expectancy isn't very long and he's also possibly going to lose his mind as well.

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

It does feel like the intuitive answer is that 'these characters are not fully themselves', but I agree this isn't consistent. Self-actualisation comes with getting a 'named' chapter is a also a common idea, but the old thread brought up the Jon Connington inconsistency in this regard:

So, I'm wondering if this isn't part of a pattern-breaking clue by GRRM. We pretty much expect these 'newer' POVs to all have specialised chapter titles, or that getting their own name back is a sign of them becoming fully who they are again. But JonCon doesn't get his name at the top, even though he's seemingly embraced his true identity at this point and is no longer Griff. Perhaps the greyscale coursing through his body prevents this?

Likewise, Melisandre has only one single chapter, yet her name is front and centre. Surely if the pattern holds, her chapter should have been called 'The Fiery Priestess' or similar. The fact that it wasn't named as such may signal some 'strength of will' on her part. Or has the pattern not been broken, and we are meant to read the name 'Melisandre' as being a 'title' much as 'The Prophet' or 'The Reaver'? We do glimpse a memory of 'Melony, lot 7' indicating that this used to be her real name, making 'Melisandre' a kind of identity story she has created for herself.

JonCon was not hiding his identity for a portion of his time in Essos. He was openly a member of the Golden Company. His disguise was only ever to serve Aegon, and was never one he took seriously inside his head. Everything he has done and will do stems from his guilt over Rhaegar's death and his own failure at Stony Sept that lead to it, and to his exile.

So I don't find it all that much of a puzzle. JonCon is The Griffin Reborn when he reclaims his castle and is no longer an exile.

Thought: I wonder if we are meant to take anything from the name Stony Sept in relation to JonCon's greyscale.

[Sandy Clegg]

11 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

JonCon was not hiding his identity for a portion of his time in Essos. He was openly a member of the Golden Company. His disguise was only ever to serve Aegon, and was never one he took seriously inside his head. Everything he has done and will do stems from his guilt over Rhaegar's death and his own failure at Stony Sept that lead to it, and to his exile.

I guess two 'Jons' in the book would be confusing, which also explains the JonCon titles sufficiently.

Well, there must be more to it then. I'll reiterate GRRM's quote about the book titles, which I think might equally apply to his chapter titles:

I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. That's what I'm striving for here.

Possibly not all the chapter titles are meant to have deeper meanings, but I'll bet that enough of them do. For the most part they just seem fairly self-explanatory, though, and serve mainly to add flavour to the books. For me, the 'parallel stories' idea rings truest, as there is so little else to glean from the titles in the way of e.g. symbolism or wordplay. The Captain of the Guard, for example - such a dry title, I can't really see what deeper meaning there could be. Maybe this is one of those things that will all make sense in retrospect, once ADOS comes out ...

Edited March 18 by Sandy Clegg

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I was reading some old GRRM interviews and came across this gem:

From the fourth book you have been uncovering some chapters with nicknames, like ‘The Prophet’ or ‘The Kraken’s Daughter’. Why do you do that?

Well… [Thinks for a long time with an enigmatic smile] I don’t know if you know Gene Wolfe, one of the best science fiction and fantasy writers, in my opinion. Well, his work is full of puzzles and enigmas and you have to put a lot of attention on what he is saying. I remember one day I asked him: “Why do you use that? Is there a deeper reason beyond?” And he didn’t say anything at the beginning. He just smiled me ironically and said to me: “What do you think it means?” And I told him my theories. Then, he answered: “Interesting…” [Laughs]. That’s all you're gonna get out of me, but I have to say this is not an accident [Laughs].

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Two things:

a) It's good to know that deep down GRRM is just one of us, and has had his own obsessions with puzzles in other fantasy works.  

b) any thoughts on what deeper reasons may lie beyond  the titles such as 'The Prophet', etc?

I've seen some people argue that all of the PoVs are the result of future Bran looking at the past through that person's mind with his uber-greenseer powers. So at the beginning, the chapters are named because he knows the person he is channeling, including himself. Toward the end, he doesn't necessarily know who they are, so you get The Windblown and the Soiled Knight, etc.

I can't say I totally buy into it, since he ought to know who Alayne and Cat of the Canals are, but it's an intriguing idea.

[Evolett]

I'm partial to the identity theory myself, but I think it's more subtle than that. If GRRM is retelling past history (or rhyming it) by way of current events and character parallels, then it's possible the non-named chapters represent characters who have opted or been forced by circumstances to depart from the status quo and take a new approach, do things differently this time round, hopefully to achieve a better outcome for the world in this cycle. The World Book has a passage stating that the GEotD was not restored:

Quote

Yet the Great Empire of the Dawn was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day.

 

This exactly reflects what we see in the narrative. So instead of history repeating itself with small variations over and over again, a reset is necessary and this can be brought about by the people who actually play a role in driving events, people who are willing to or forced to diverge from the norm/expected (ETA).  As such, these chapters are future oriented, representing a departure from the rhyme of history. 

Sansa as  "Alayne," a new version of herself, not a little bird repeating stuff others have fed her but a player who learns to play the game. Arya learns a whole new set of skills with every iteration / identity change and we are yet to see how these will play out in the future. 

JonCon as the Griffin reborn also makes sense in this context. He's come through his period of exile a changed man. While Tywin thought him  too young, bold and eager for glory when Aerys named him Hand, Kevin Lannister's current thoughts on Jon are quite the opposite:

Quote

If this is indeed Jon Connington, he will be a different man. Older, harder, more seasoned ... more dangerous.

Victarion also fits this mold. Not only is he feeding the Red God as well as the drowned god, surely a blasphemy in the Damphair's eyes, his intention to defy his brother Euron speaks to a change in his mental framework. The dutiful brother turning rebellious. 

In the case of Theon > Reek > Theon, I suspect his historical parallel was neither able to withstand the Ramsay parallel nor recover his own identity. 

The Soiled Knight of the Kingsguard literally forsook his vows and went to bed in more ways than one with the Dornish - an age old enemy of the Marcher Lords. This also drives forward the plot in ways that are yet to be revealed. Hotah probably ties into this as well.

 In the Prophet, the Damphair calls the first kingsmoot in hundreds of years. In the Kraken's Daughter,  Asha makes it clear she intends to put herself forward as a candidate for the Seastone Chair - a woman - unheard of in Ironborn culture. Both examples of taking a new approach, doing things differently. 

I think the title of Euron/Damphair's Forsaken Chapter illustrates this principle of treading new paths and sweeping away the old - the plethora of defeated Gods seen by Aeron in his vision is a poignant example, and drastic as it may seem, Euron's description of the "charnal pit" he aims to turn the realm into before instating a new order. This is gross and not what we imagine a "dream of spring" to be but it makes the point. Those gods are truely "forsaken." This isn't a new idea either. It's what the Dothraki did during the Century of Blood, compelete with carrying off the gods of the defeated peoples to Vaes Dothrak, only slightly milder. From this point of view, it even makes sense for Daenerys to be assosiated with Euron. 

This pattern of the characters in those non-named chapters acquing new skills, engaging in atypical activities or simply doing things differently is what may lead to a healthier restoration in the end. This does not mean that the actions engaged in are "good" or will have positive outcomes for the characters involved. It's how the pieces finally come together that matters.

 

Edit: typos and one addition.

Edited March 19 by Evolett

[KingStoneheart]

I'm really interested to fully understand just why some new POVs get named chapters in place of their name, especially now that I've just completed my third or fourth re-read. My honest and original thinking was just that the named Chapters were kind of side-characters who were pretty much destined to die (but had an in-between story to tell until a more main POV came along). The reason I think they are destined to die is that there's too much overlap once the main characters get together (Mereen is a perfect example) and POV characters never just cease to be a POV character unless they are killed. I know that Victarion changed half-way through ADWD to his name so it could be just because during the writing of the book, GRRM was like "you know what, I like this guy, I've decided he's going to have a bigger part to play and will last a bit longer than Meereen".

When it comes to Arya and Sansa, it is slightly more interesting. Arya is just purely because she's undergoing her training as an assassin and really is trying to pretend to not be Arya, but Sansa changing from Sansa to Alayne is very interesting and not like "The Lord Protector's Bastard" or something. This could also be down to just how young she is and easier to fully accept this new character that she is portraying.

I really don't know though, but would like to know the full reasoning behind it.

[Sandy Clegg]

20 hours ago, KingStoneheart said:

I really don't know though, but would like to know the full reasoning behind it.

I read somewhere that maybe it was to hide the fact that he had named too many 'A-starting' characters, in AFFC: 

• Aeron
• Arianne
• Asha
• Areo
• Arya
• Alayne

So the naming convention may have been a way to mask this otherwise jarring fact? I mean, he could have just changed the names if this was the case, so I don't completely buy it. But I found it amusing. 

[The hairy bear]

The named characters are:

• The 6 characters that were supposed to be included in AFFC's prologue: Initally, AFFC was supposed to start with a 6 POV prologue with Dornish and Iron Islands characters (Aero, Arys, Arianne, Asha, Aerion and Victarion). Since they were all intially prologue characters, George had to think of a title to distinguish them. Those titles were kept when the chapters were distributed through all the book. But when those characters have further chapters, they are title with their names.
• The characters that change his identity, from AFFC. George thought of changing Sansa and Arya's names to reflect their change of identity. He didn't start doing that in ASOS because he still hadn't thought of it.
• Jon Connington: George couldn't title his chapters with "Jon", so he had to think of something.
• Barristan: no idea here, but perhaps George did it so that Jon Connington didn't stand out that much.

 

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

Most likely for some foreshadowing and will likely reference them in future chapters, some of them could be a reference to the mental state of the characters. Or it could be Martin telling you not to focus on the the subject in the chapter titles and pay attention to other details. Its seems like Martin is experimenting with these books so it could be a number of things and have changed meanings. 

Edited April 15 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[chrisdaw]

The forsaken is ironic. Aeron has not been forsaken by his god as Euron believes and taunts him by. He's going to die, but he's not going to stay dead, he will feast in the Drowned God's watery hall and rise again harder and stronger.

The King's Prize makes me wonder if she'll be a prize but for another king. Asha gains an understanding of the northmen's loyalties in this chapter and that come around to helping make Jon.

In the Sacrifice Theon turns up right at the end so the sacrifice may refer to him, which would align with the next (later) chapter, but he's not dying now at that tree. Some possibilities,

- Asha may end up sacrificing something of her self for mercy (like accepting a marriage) for Theon,

- she may later in the story sacrifice Leon to save the Ironborn or the forces she commands.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

20 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I read somewhere that maybe it was to hide the fact that he had named too many 'A-starting' characters, in AFFC: 

• Aeron
• Arianne
• Asha
• Areo
• Arya
• Alayne

So the naming convention may have been a way to mask this otherwise jarring fact? I mean, he could have just changed the names if this was the case, so I don't completely buy it. But I found it amusing. 

I believe that explanation goes way too far.

George just did that naming thing because he likes to fool around. And he didn´t start before book 4 (?) because he didn´t think of it earlier.

[John Suburbs]

On 3/17/2024 at 6:47 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

I was reading some old GRRM interviews and came across this gem:

From the fourth book you have been uncovering some chapters with nicknames, like ‘The Prophet’ or ‘The Kraken’s Daughter’. Why do you do that?

Well… [Thinks for a long time with an enigmatic smile] I don’t know if you know Gene Wolfe, one of the best science fiction and fantasy writers, in my opinion. Well, his work is full of puzzles and enigmas and you have to put a lot of attention on what he is saying. I remember one day I asked him: “Why do you use that? Is there a deeper reason beyond?” And he didn’t say anything at the beginning. He just smiled me ironically and said to me: “What do you think it means?” And I told him my theories. Then, he answered: “Interesting…” [Laughs]. That’s all you're gonna get out of me, but I have to say this is not an accident [Laughs].

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Two things:

a) It's good to know that deep down GRRM is just one of us, and has had his own obsessions with puzzles in other fantasy works.  

b) any thoughts on what deeper reasons may lie beyond  the titles such as 'The Prophet', etc?

I know when I got to the Red Wedding chapters I flipped forward to see if there were any more Cat or Arya chapters, so that might be one reason.

But I also read a theory some time back that all the PoVs are actually Bran seeing the story unfold through other people's minds. So the unnamed chapters are people he might not know, like The Soiled Night or The Spurned Suitor. Or he may be just playing along with someone's new identity, like Alayne or Cat of the Canals.

I can't say I buy into it, but it's an intriguing idea.

 

Edit: Sorry, I didn't realize I'd already commented on this thread. Disregard.

Edited April 15 by John Suburbs