Bloodraven, Bran, and the Old Gods

[Lady Topspin]

On 4/15/2024 at 7:06 AM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Bloodraven has a plan to save the people of Westeros. 

Leaf - "In the world that men have made, there is no room for (direwolves), or us."

Is man the real threat?  One would think from what we're getting from Leaf. Then the following is contradictory to that argument.  Bloodraven wants to save all.

"(Bloodraven) has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers.  For us, for you, for the realms of men."

"When (singers) died, they went into the wood, into leaf limb and root, and the trees remembered.  All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew of this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods.  The singers believe they are the old gods.  When singers die they become a part of that Godhood."

Bloodraven means to save all by migrating their memories and knowledge into the trees.  That's what his plan sounds like to me.  I changed my mind about Bran's future after reading this chapter.  I used to think Bran will survive through the story and live at the end.  I don't think that anymore.  I now think his body will die and he will achieve that Godhood when he joins the hive minds inside the trees.  But there is trouble down the road.

"Never fear the darkness, Bran.  The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth.  Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

All alone in the dark watching the human drama through the eyes of the trees and the ravens.  That is Bran's future.  And Bran seems to slowly accept it as his dreams of knighthood slowly evaporates in the gloom of the cave.  There is trouble though.  Bran continues to violate one of the ethics of skinchanging.  He keeps forcing himself into the poor stable boy and spies on the Reeds.  He begins to develop strong feelings for Meera Reed.  I think this is what will turn Bran from the potential greenseer who will save everyone into a selfish boy who will use his power to do harm.  Already he has eaten human flesh through his direwolf.  Bran is slowly becoming bad. 

 

The Starks cannot seem to follow rules.  Jon had issues with rules and so does Arya.  Bran continues the ignoble family trait with what he does to poor Hodor and the cannibalism.  Soon he will start craving blood. 

The red material in the porridge was not Jojen's but it is the accumulated human blood from the trees.  The sap is the blood of all the people who were sacrificed to the trees.  Bran ate blood but it was not Jojen's.  Not yet anyway.

[Lady Topspin]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:21 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

BR holds no hope for mankind and threw in the towel if this is his best plan.  It's not a bad plan.  He saves the ghosts of all in Westeros and make them part of the data stored in the tree network.  He saves the trees at the same time because no humans will mean no more cutting trees.  Jon will be the first to live after losing his body and finding a new home in his Direwolf.  Ghost is indeed a fitting name for the dw.  The Direwolf will be Jon's ghost from here on.  He gets to live as an individual in the wolf instead of joining a collective entity inside the trees.  He's always been somewhat of a lone wolf.  

Murder everyone so they can become part of the weirwoods in order to save them is very dark.  Arya is training to commit this genocide after Bran tells her to in a dream.  There will surely be a lot of resistance.  Not just in the North but from every part of Westeros.  Manipulating people through dreams is not complete control. 

Weirwoods are not the Old Gods. The OGs are hidden underground sucking blood through the trees.  We are told in history when Allysanne and Jaeherys outlawed the first night and built a buffer zone between the lords' fief and the Wall.  Must have also outlawed human sacrifice.  The OGs got by because Craster was sacrificing for the realm.  His absence is a problem for the OGs.  I think Mormont sort of understood the necessity of what Craster did.  He just can't explain it to his people because it's an awkward truth.  The peace will break if or when Mellissandre sacrifices Craster's son.  The boy is a son of Ice and a close kin of the Starks.  It's a terrible insult to sacrifice a pure Stark blood to R'hllor.  The boy has been promised to the Others since the day he was born.  

 

[Northern Sword]

19 hours ago, Lady Topspin said:

The Starks cannot seem to follow rules.  Jon had issues with rules and so does Arya.  Bran continues the ignoble family trait with what he does to poor Hodor and the cannibalism.  Soon he will start craving blood. 

The red material in the porridge was not Jojen's but it is the accumulated human blood from the trees.  The sap is the blood of all the people who were sacrificed to the trees.  Bran ate blood but it was not Jojen's.  Not yet anyway.

It is a slippery slope when calling out only a couple people who followed their own path, instead of the "Rules".

The other question would be, who's rules? 

Did the Targ's follow the rules while burning lords and heirs. Did Rhaegar follow the rules by running away with a Stark Bride after he was already married. The Seven wouldn't approve.

Did Robert follow the Rules when he rebelled ? How about Jon Arryn ?

Did the Lannister's when they sacked Kings Landing while Jamie killed the King.

Frey's at the RW ? Has Cersei followed the rules, ever? The Bolton's ? Daenerys ?

Even Bloodraven himself didn't seem to care about the rules.

Tough to single out a single person or family, when it seems it is the norm not the exception to break the rules.

It may be interesting to ask, of all characters and Families, who HAS followed the rules?

Maybe Stannis to a point, but he killed his brother with a magic shadow baby. Don't think that is in the rule book.

Dead Ned I suppose, and look where that got him. so...

Edited April 18 by Northern Sword

[Aline de Gavrillac]

How Bran treats Hodor is very troubling.  He knows better and still continues to invade Hodor's mind.  Bran is the most severe kind of slaver.  He controls Hodor in body and mind.  Hodor has no agency and gets forcefully used to satisfy a sick voyeurism.  

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Just another delusional Stark-hating thread.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

5 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Just another delusional Stark-hating thread.

Every time I see the Tully Madness thread reappear, I age another 10 years.

[Lissasalayaya]

9 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

How Bran treats Hodor is very troubling.  He knows better and still continues to invade Hodor's mind.  Bran is the most severe kind of slaver.  He controls Hodor in body and mind.  Hodor has no agency and gets forcefully used to satisfy a sick voyeurism.  

Somebody who's defending Bran will say Bran doesn't know any better because he's a child. Varamyr at least was taught this is wrong. But Bran was never taught. What would you say to that?

[Sydney Mae]

On 4/15/2024 at 7:06 AM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

There is trouble though.  Bran continues to violate one of the ethics of skinchanging.  He keeps forcing himself into the poor stable boy and spies on the Reeds.

@H Wadsworth Longfellow

Bran already knows this is a violation because Hodor tried to resists.  Bran is quickly escalating because he is getting used to abusing Hodor.  He's becoming callous and has stopped caring about right and wrong.  Pretty much the same with Arya killing people.  The morality dissolves and it gets easier to do the bad things.  

The affection for Meera is not a bad thing.  It's sweet and a positive emotion.  It's the impossibility of fulfilling it that will cause trouble for Bran.  Unrequited love or something like that.  

[trollrrmartin]

Bran has and will continue to go down a dark path, especially with him skinchanging into Hodor. We are close to the lowest point of his story right now, but the same can be said for the other Stark children. But their arcs are incomplete, and just like Arya will grow beyond a Faceless Man Bran will grow beyond being Bloodraven's pawn (or Bloodraven will steal his body)

[Darth Sidious]

The Bran-Joffrey comparison is fair. Bran will have more capacity for evil because he has no restraints. I would love it if the Reed girl could see Bran for what he is becomng and have to make the decision to take drastic action to stop him. 

[Lissasalayaya]

11 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

The Bran-Joffrey comparison is fair. Bran will have more capacity for evil because he has no restraints. I would love it if the Reed girl could see Bran for what he is becomng and have to make the decision to take drastic action to stop him. 

What kind of action? How do you stop a powerful skinchanger from mindraping someone? 

[U. B. Cool]

Bran will have more victims after Hodor.  It's sad for Hodor.  

The trees are connected together.  I suggest burning down the Weirwood in Winterfell.  That won't kill Bran but it will hurt him very badly.  Stop the people from pouring blood to the roots and starve Bran.  Follow it up and burn down enough Weirwood and he will get weaker and die.  That's what I would do to stop Bran.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:38 PM, LongRider said:

Poor Jon Snow, and here I thought he was evil incarnate by trying to save lives and protect the realms of men, only to be upstaged by the Great and Powerful Oz, oops, I mean Bran.  

I was talking about Bran but I will talk about Jon Snow because you brought him into our conversion.  Protecting the realms of men is Jon's role but he betrayed the Night's Watch for his sister.  He took actions which destabilized the Night's Watch and began a family war with the Boltons.  Those actions were harmful to the Night's Watch and the realm he swore to defend.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:53 AM, U. B. Cool said:

I suggest burning down the Weirwood in Winterfell. 

Effective if the trees are connected to each other.  It sure appears that is the case.  The heart tree in Winterfell was fed many human lives by its Stark caretakers for thousands of years.  It is a hub and burning it would do significant damage to all the greenseers.  The roots may run deep enough to enter the crypts and the kings of winter have among them in the past greenseers who have now become part of the tree.

[Northern Sword]

What a world... Bran an 8 year old, gets thrown out a window, almost dies and is paralyzed. His family gets killed and hunted down, his castle gets sacked, he flees to the far north to escape his enemies and learn how to save humanity. 

Only to have people act like he is the problem and needs his trees burnt down. Whilst also being compared to the psychopathic King Joffrey. Wow

[LongRider]

29 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Only to have people act like he is the problem and needs his trees burnt down.

Welcome to the wonderful (sic) world of Stark haters and trolls.    

[House Cambodia]

9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Effective if the trees are connected to each other.  It sure appears that is the case.  The heart tree in Winterfell was fed many human lives by its Stark caretakers for thousands of years.  It is a hub and burning it would do significant damage to all the greenseers.  The roots may run deep enough to enter the crypts and the kings of winter have among them in the past greenseers who have now become part of the tree.

I'd say you've just demonstrated why burning down ONE weirwood tree would NOT be effective. The very nature of a network is that taking out one 'hub' does not significantly damage the whole system. That logic stands on its own, but I actually suspect the entire Westerosi weirwood net is connected by a root system that goes extremely deep into the earth and reaches throughout the continent (Dorne probably excepted).

None of which is to say I support the wider premiss. My working hypothesis is that once Bran fully realises himself as the Three-Eyed Crow (who is NOT Bloodraven), he will rebel against his conditioning.

[Darth Sidious]

On 4/21/2024 at 10:23 PM, Lissasalayaya said:

What kind of action? How do you stop a powerful skinchanger from mindraping someone? 

Meera can find a way. 

[Craving Peaches]

On 4/23/2024 at 6:49 PM, LongRider said:

Welcome to the wonderful (sic) world of Stark haters and trolls.    

Took a break for a while because no wifi or mobile reception and these threads are the delights I am greeted with...

[Craving Peaches]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:30 AM, Lady Topspin said:

The Starks cannot seem to follow rules.  Jon had issues with rules and so does Arya.  Bran continues the ignoble family trait with what he does to poor Hodor and the cannibalism.  Soon he will start craving blood. 

The Targaryens cannot seem to follow rules. Aerys had issues with rules and so did Rhaegar. Daenerys continues the ignoble family trait with what she does to poor Viserys and the black magic. Soon she will start craving blood.