Killing Cecil

[Jaxom 1974]

If everyone turned vegan tomorrow what would happen to animals domesticatied for food production?

I don't think it would matter much because so very many of us would find a way to quickly shuffle off the mortal coil if suddenly confronted with the idea of being vegan.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I could deal with vegetarian. Vegan, nope, I love cheese/

[eyenon15]

What about those poor plants.

[The Anti-Targ]

I went vegan (diet only, I didn't stop wearing leather shoes or wearing wool clothing, though wool prickles me like crazy so I don't wear much wool) for about 4 months, just to try it out, and see what it did to my weight. I exerted no self control other than avoiding animal products, so I was rather a junk food vegan. 

 

As much as I thought I'd miss cheese, I was more than happy to compensate with dark chocolate (no milk) and potato chips fried in vegetable oil. So I ended up not missing cheese at all. The reason I didn't stay vegan, I was putting on too much weight. Going back to a low-carb protein based diet, with ad-lib cheese stabilised my weight and has allowed me to lose weight.  

 

Obviously I am not advocating all the vegans or all of everyone eat venison instead. But, where the deer population is large enough to require hunting to keep the deer from starvation over winter it is absolutely better for those who are inclined to hunt to do so rather than consume mass farmed products of any kind. Any real food solution has to be local, but yeah, for someone in Central Minnesota (I'm sure Ixodes would concur), eating venison is a super eco friendly option, especially during deer season when all produce has to be trucked in from very far away because of our climate.

And that is totally fine and legit, under very specific set of circumstances, which includes the unfortunate historical local extinction of the top predators and unbalancing of the ecosystem. One wonders if the circle of life is better served by having deer starving to death during the winter than being hunted and population managed. Nature is cruel, it's not our duty to compensate for hundreds of millions of years of natural processes which keep ecosystems in balance. Carrion eaters gotta eat over winter, and some deer starved to death in winter is a nice easy meal to get them through. 

 

What's not fine is suggesting that hunting is environmentally better than farming in a broader sense. If you want to do something about the environmental negatives of soy / corn farming then change the farming system. Advocating a transition to hunter-gatherer systems is a practical impossibility.

[The Anti-Targ]

I personally cannot do soy as a protein because it mimics estrogen in the body. This is typical of many breast-cancer survivors.

Fermented soy (tofu, proper soy sauce) doesn't, as I understand it. Which is why nutritionists who aren't in someone's pocket say males should pretty much avoid unfermented soy products. Similarly pretty much all infant nutritionists are firmly opposed to soy as an infant formula base, quite apart from the fact that as a base ingredient it is sorely lacking in just about everything that's necessary to be an effective breast milk alternative.

 

In terms of the subject at hand, soy is merely being cited as some sort of illegitimate argument for why hunting=good. But there is no legit argument for hunting being better than agriculture as the base for a food production system, except as a way to implement a de-population policy.

[Kelli Fury]

you're ascribing positions to me I do not have. Stating the fact that in many ecosystems and logistical markets, that in season game hunting of overpopulated species is among your most low impact food choices is not saying we should all transition to hunter gatherers. You know that, I know that

[Trebla]

You know what is really irritating me? This "how can you care about a lion in Africa when _________ is happening?" bullshit. What are we supposed be, one issue people? I can't care about an endangered species and care about police brutality? Since I care about women's reproduction rights I can't also care about immigration reform?

 

People that do this aren't helping their cause, they are hurting it.

[eyenon15]

I only have so much outrage to go around.
The guy is disturbing and likely disturbed but piling on a guy and plastering his name and picture all over talk shows and internet does more harm than good IMO. That's not even done to rapists and people killers. Public shaming is a hobby, i question how much of the grandstanders slinging hatred really care about the lion population or just see a great oppurtunity to indulge in a good old fashioned pitchfork mob.

Obama is lame ducking it he should try to get that import ban in on lion trophies

[drawkcabi]

You know what is really irritating me? This "how can you care about a lion in Africa when _________ is happening?" bullshit. What are we supposed be, one issue people? I can't care about an endangered species and care about police brutality? Since I care about women's reproduction rights I can't also care about immigration reform?

 

People that do this aren't helping their cause, they are hurting it.

 

So completely agree.

[wolverine]

 

And that is totally fine and legit, under very specific set of circumstances, which includes the unfortunate historical local extinction of the top predators and unbalancing of the ecosystem. One wonders if the circle of life is better served by having deer starving to death during the winter than being hunted and population managed. Nature is cruel, it's not our duty to compensate for hundreds of millions of years of natural processes which keep ecosystems in balance. Carrion eaters gotta eat over winter, and some deer starved to death in winter is a nice easy meal to get them through. 

 

What's not fine is suggesting that hunting is environmentally better than farming in a broader sense. If you want to do something about the environmental negatives of soy / corn farming then change the farming system. Advocating a transition to hunter-gatherer systems is a practical impossibility.

 

What are you talking about?  The wolves in Minnesota keep moving further and further south.  The top predators here are not extinct.  Black bears are becoming more and more common as well.  Agriculture provides a lot of food for deer, hence the deer population is much higher than it ever would be naturally.  I am pretty sure a loss in predators has much less to do with the imbalance than all the additional food for deer due to farming.

[Howdyphillip]

You know what is really irritating me? This "how can you care about a lion in Africa when _________ is happening?" bullshit. What are we supposed be, one issue people? I can't care about an endangered species and care about police brutality? Since I care about women's reproduction rights I can't also care about immigration reform?

 

People that do this aren't helping their cause, they are hurting it.

I generally agree with this point, but today someone confronted me about the lack of reaction I have when it comes to transgender people being murdered, and it really resonated with me. Why was I so angry about this lion, yet didn't have nearly the same emotional response when it came to humans suffering?

 

Again, I believe firmly that I can, and should be outraged by both, but it was an introspective moment for me.

[Lord Flashheart]

Hunting a lion is easier than stealing a car in Grand Theft Auto. What's the thrill in driving up to an animal and shooting it? Pathetic.

[IamMe90]

You know what is really irritating me? This "how can you care about a lion in Africa when _________ is happening?" bullshit. What are we supposed be, one issue people? I can't care about an endangered species and care about police brutality? Since I care about women's reproduction rights I can't also care about immigration reform?

 

People that do this aren't helping their cause, they are hurting it.

 

Actually, I think the more salient point is that people don't care about "_________" that's happening, when they do care about the lion in Africa. For instance, Gordon Ramsay did an expose of the backward practice of making shark fin soup in China, and people gave maybe a hundredth of the shit they do here, because sharks are fish and scary and etc. You can extrapolate further and say that it's pretty concerning how little the majority of people get outraged over instances of systemic police brutality in comparison to this one lion in Africa. 

 

So really, you're allowed to care about all of these things, but at least, the rational people I've been hearing arguments (in the vein of) what you're talking about from are talking about people that aren't being consistent with the positions they take on various moral issues.

 

To be clear, I think that the amount of people in the developed world who should reexamine the consistency of their ethical positions and the biases (like omg cute mammals) that are the loci for these inconsistencies is far greater than the amount of people who don't understand that the poaching of endangered species is obviously morally wrong. So I think there is some merit to the idea that we should be bringing this up when we see a disproportionately large amount of outrage over a relatively specific and less commonplace immoral act that occurs, when that disproportionate amount of outrage can probably be explained pretty easily in non-ethical terms.

[Tears of Lys]

I couldn't give a shit less about whether he's being unfairly demonized. Fuck him. The guy is a repellant character. All I do care about is what we do about him. And, really, there's nothing **we** in the USA can do about him. AFAIK, it's not specifically illegal to bring into the country the head of a dead endangered lion. We shouldn't fight the extradition, if that's what happens, of course.

As I said upthread, let Zimbabwe take care of him. They suffered the loss. I'm sure their laws cover a situation like this and they can mete out an appropriate punishment.

As for having greater outrage about this lion's death, in my case at least, not really. I get totally outraged by at least five things that happen in the world every damn day. I don't think that just because people are upset by this that it somehow means they're not even more upset about something else. It's just that THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

[Kelli Fury]

There is no reason it should not be made illegal to bring home pieces of endangered animals to the U.S. It already is in Australia, and I think it's a great idea.

And don't anyone feel too badly for this guy. He has an illegal hunting conviction under his belt in Wisconsin, which he also lied about to authorities. He also trophy hunted a lion previously, as well as a leopard and a fucking rhinoceros (the Rhino is especially reprehensible). He also has multiple complaints by staff and clients of his dental practice for groping. So, this guy is just a real peach all around.

[DreamSongs]

ToL...hopefully with ivory being banned, the next step will be banning the import of animal remains whether they have undergone taxidermy or not.  Any import of animal remains should be limited to scientific/museum study.

[Theda Baratheon]

Im not gonna tell people off for not caring for the one lion, but jusy want to reiterate it wasn't just one lion he killed but likely ensured the death of all of cecil's cubs when the next male comes in. Yes this happens in nature bit this wasnt supposed to happen now as there was NOTHING natural about this murder.

[Elder Sister]

There is a tremendous amount of vitriol being aimed at this guy, but to me, at least, I do understand it.  

 

The photo shows this jolly, happy, totally pleased with himself guy who is posing with a the carcass of a dead animal.  And we've all seen him doing the same thing with several dead animals.  It's disturbing, and I think people are reacting to the emotional impact of that photo.  If we had all just read about it and never seen the photos, it wouldn't have made such an impact on us.

 

Every time I have to kill something, whether it's a coyote, or a cow bird, or an armadillo, it bothers me.  I had to put down a raccoon one time that was either rabid or crazy.  I have no idea.  It bothered me.  But I have no animal control out where I live. If I need to deal with an animal, it's on me.  At no point do I ever feel like posing or gloating over the fact that I've killed something that was living.

 

I think that's what disturbs me, and most other people so much about this.  Those photos showed a person who was very satisfied with what they had done.  

[Balefont]

You know what is really irritating me? This "how can you care about a lion in Africa when _________ is happening?" bullshit. What are we supposed be, one issue people? I can't care about an endangered species and care about police brutality? Since I care about women's reproduction rights I can't also care about immigration reform?

 

People that do this aren't helping their cause, they are hurting it.

 

Preach it!

[Fragile Bird]

Good commentary about Palmer http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/walter-palmer-dentist-and-lion-slayer-now-on-the-internet-hunt-list-1.3173233
 

Safari Club International, an organization dedicated to celebrating the bwana, maintains a scoring system for rating these "harvests," and even distinguishes between "free-range" and "estate-taken" animals (estates being basically private hunting zoos for really rich people).

Its website helpfully explains how to obtain an endangered species import permit from the U.S. government. (Who knew such a document exists?)

According to a painfully hagiographic profile of Palmer in the New York Times a few years ago — he can apparently hit a playing card at 100 yards — this sort of killing is considered by hunting cognoscenti as an almost worshipful act, especially when done with bow and arrow rather than a big gun, which can finish the job instantly.

"It is a personal achievement to harvest any big-game animal with a bow and arrow," Glen Hisey, a big-game record-keeper, told the Times. "It is a way of honouring that animal for all time."
Actually, in the trophy pictures, Palmer's honorees just look bloody and savaged.

In one, shirtless and proud, he embraces a large, limp, blood-encrusted leopard.

In another, he squats happily behind an endangered bighorn sheep. And the massive white rhinoceros he "took" in South Africa, reportedly the biggest ever downed by a bow and arrow, looks almost comically docile pictured beside the ecstatic hunter.

Palmer's cohort talk a lot about noble ideas in their zeal to promote and defend what they probably know down deep isn't a terribly noble hobby.

Sort of like the Wall Street vultures who talked about being "wealth creators," even as they nearly destroyed the national economy.

The trophy-hunting gang brag about their "fight to conserve wildlife." They are "humanitarians," concerned with education and promoting family traditions, despite increasing attacks from "anti-hunting extremists" in the media and, increasingly, in government.

Palmer himself wrote on his dental website that when he's not making smiles beautiful, he travels the world "observing nature."