Harry and Hermione

[Zman1863]

From what I've seen of these reports, we don't yet have the full exchange between her and Watson yet. It looks like the reports might be jumping from Rowling's assertion about Ron and Hermione not being an ideal couple to the conclusion that Hermione should have ended up with Harry. However if it is all true it has a distinctly George Lucas-y feel to it.

I could live with her having second thoughts about Ron and Hermione ending happily married. I'm not sure their relationship would ultimately work either. But I don't really see it as being completely implausible or a flaw in the series from a literary standpoint as she seems to be suggesting. There are a bunch of flaws with the series that I would put above the Hermione/Ron relationship resolution. Besides, having second thoughts about Ron and Hermione working out in the end really only has to undermine the epilogue, which is not widely loved anyway.

Taking it a step further and saying that Harry and Hermione should have ended up a couple is much more intrusive to the series as written. It arguably implicates developments all the way back to the first book. It would entail changing who the characters are. And in addition to how big a change it would be to the series, it is also the result of almost unbelievably simplistic reasoning. "Ron and Hermione are not an ideal couple and it might even be implausible to portray them as happy, therefore Hermione should have ended up with Harry" as if that's the only possible choice. I'm having a hard time believing that Rowling thinks that the best solution to a non ideal Ron/Hermione resolution would have been to force Harry and Hermione into an enormous cliche.

As an aside I agree with some of the others who think that on the whole the Harry/Ginny relationship was not satisfying and that overall the Ron and Hermione relationship was written better. The reason why I think this was true was that the series follows the Ron/Hermione relationship consistently from book to book. With Harry and Ginny I think Rowling did a good job setting it up early in the series, but wasn't able to pull it off once it was time to bring it from the realm of foreshadowing into a more active position with the plot.

[davos]

I don't think Rowling handled love very well at all. I think all her attempts at pairings during the whole series felt at best a bit forced and artificial. I eventually just accepted that I would never be fully satisfied with her handling of this element of the story and decided to just ignore it as much as possible so I could better enjoy better realized elements.

Though, admittedly, I am also one that feels that finding a way for Harry to live through it was a cop-out. It felt more natural for Harry to have to sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort permanently. So the whole ending felt artificial to me. Of course, I recognized that while these books had a wide audience, that they were aimed primarily at children and younger teens and such a harsh ending would have probably not been acceptable even if Rowling wanted to go in that direction. Given the above, I felt like, it would have been far better to set the epilogue a few months after the battle of Hogwarts. End it with the main characters leaving Hogwarts and starting their adult lives. Leave it to our imaginations where it goes from there.

Additionally, we all know that High School romances most often don't last and many of those that do end up as train-wrecks. Even in the insular wizarding world, where the selection is much smaller, it didn't sit right with me to the pairings that occurred at 16 becoming set for life.

[rocksniffer]

OMG! Luna and Neville would have been great!!!

I wouldn't have wanted Ginny's heart to be broken. Hermione and Harry would have created some superpowered wizards, though.

would they really, Bai... i mean harry and ron were pretty similar in intelligence and ability, except for the enhanced abilities that harry got from being a voldemort horcrux himself. and he lost those when that piece of soul was wiped out...at least that's how i interpreted it when i read the books to the Princess.

I think I also read somewhere previously that JKR was seriously considering killing off Ron in Hallows. But It was Ron and Hermione who all along had the love for each other, not H & H, Hermione and Harry had a close and dear friendship. Killing off Ron and leaving Harry and Hermione together would have been too bittersweet, IMO. She did that killing off Fred - in her interviews about what happened after the last book, George marries Fred's girlfriend, Angelina Johnson.

Maybe she just wishes she was more daring now, and had gone for more tragedy, Snape, Dumbledore and Fred not being enough deaths of main characters for such a huge war. But she did kill off so many peripheral characters and members of the Order of the Phoenix.

i tend to agree that for such a sweeping saga of good v evil more should have died...i supported it being one of the big three...but then again i am a cold-hearted asshole...

Ron played the classic role of damsel-in-distress. The main character even ends up with the female version of him. Hermione's the plucky sidekick, as well the authorial self-insert who wins said damsel as a prize.

never saw it this way but it completely makes sense...roll reversal at it's finest!

Neither Harry nor Ron are the chivalrous heroes of the story. It is Neville. He has less to lose but more choices than Harry, and unlike Harry, he tends to get most everything right. He lives third class among "friends" who appreciate him, but always to a certain point only. All through the books and especially in the end, it is Neville`s preservance and faithfulness and strong effort that saves the day - and in the end, Hogwarts and humanity. He is the real Azor Ahai Godwin Godric Gryffindor come again.

As girls go, Hermione of course is our primary heroine, but Ginny and Luna aren´t bad at all, they just haven´t been built up that well in the story.

edit: Godwin -> Godric thanks @Dracarya

wellsaid!

eta: because i hadn't the sense to notice i wrote since until i hit post... :smoking:

[Gneisenau]

Though, admittedly, I am also one that feels that finding a way for Harry to live through it was a cop-out. It felt more natural for Harry to have to sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort permanently. So the whole ending felt artificial to me. Of course, I recognized that while these books had a wide audience, that they were aimed primarily at children and younger teens and such a harsh ending would have probably not been acceptable even if Rowling wanted to go in that direction. Given the above, I felt like, it would have been far better to set the epilogue a few months after the battle of Hogwarts. End it with the main characters leaving Hogwarts and starting their adult lives. Leave it to our imaginations where it goes from there.

I don't think Harry dieing wouldn't have been audience inappropriate mainly because the series tends to get a more serious as the books progress.

[Spring Bass]

I think Harry dying for real at the end would have been disappointing. I liked the ending, because it showed that he finally found some happiness and the happy family he never had growing up.

The Harry/Hermione thing . . . I've never seen it. There's no chemistry between them in the books at all, and never has been.

Even in the insular wizarding world, where the selection is much smaller, it didn't sit right with me to the pairings that occurred at 16 becoming set for life.

There are some high school sweetheart couples out there (like my aunt and uncle). It's not like they rushed to have kids, either - Hermione is 18 at the end of the last book, and she doesn't have Kid #1 until eight years later.

[Mark Antony]

Harry and Hermoine would of been awful.

[Callan S.]

Right after HBP came out, my friend hadn't read it yet but she knew Dumbledore died, but didn't know at whose hand; I made up this whole thing about how Hermione turned evil and killed Dumbledore because of her feeling an outcast because of her muggle-born status because she was posing as muggle born when her parents were actually Death eaters and she became Voldemort's lieutenant after that... I can't remember all the details but it was super-convincing and my friend hated me for weeks until she finally read the book.

ETA: I think that's what it was haha

This. This is excellent trolling! I approve! :) It's imaginative, it's evil! Great!

[Callan S.]

Thanks. This is how I envisage my alternative ending.

"Come on Hermione. Let's join the others. We've won. Ron....."

"Is dead, Harry. Like the Dark Lord."

"Is this your idea of a joke?".

"You forget. I don't have a sense of humour. I killed them both. Just as I'm going to kill you."

"You evil bitch" screamed Harry. He raised his wand, and shouted the Killing Curse. Hermione blocked it, with a casual flick of her wand. Harry whimpered in despair. Hermione stepped forward, beautiful, implacable, terrifying.

And whispered.

"Love me and despair"

[The Marquis de Leech]

It felt more natural for Harry to have to sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort permanently.

I'd have preferred Voldemort being locked up for life (a la Grindelwald). As it is, the last book turns Harry into a suicide bomber who literally goes to his death because Dumbledore told him to.

[C.T. Phipps]

I'd have preferred Voldemort being locked up for life (a la Grindelwald). As it is, the last book turns Harry into a suicide bomber who literally goes to his death because Dumbledore told him to.

I'd have preferred Voldemort getting so split up that he's a powerless ghost.

[rondo has three heads]

What does everyone mean, including Rowling, when they say there would be marital problems? These books did not exactly go into the psyches of the characters...what is so markedly different about the Ron/Hermione and Harry/Hermione relationship dynamics?

And what sort of problems are we talking here, physical abuse?? Come on now.

[Gneisenau]

What does everyone mean, including Rowling, when they say there would be marital problems? These books did not exactly go into the psyches of the characters...what is so markedly different about the Ron/Hermione and Harry/Hermione relationship dynamics?

And what sort of problems are we talking here, physical abuse?? Come on now.

I think the general implication is that Hermione needs someone intellectual.

[Kat]

Additionally, we all know that High School romances most often don't last and many of those that do end up as train-wrecks. Even in the insular wizarding world, where the selection is much smaller, it didn't sit right with me to the pairings that occurred at 16 becoming set for life.

This is my problem with it as well. Everyone knows a couple or two that got together in high school and it worked out, but you don't remember the many, many other relationships that didn't work out because of sample bias. (My grandparents met in high school and divorced ~20 years later after an unhappy marriage, but even so, I never heard them talk about the sweethearts they may have had that didn't work out.) I used to deride Glee because it seemed like the couples would get together and break up within an episode, and then I started teaching high school and realized that's what actually happens, in which case Order of the Phoenix is probably the most irritatingly accurate portray of teenage Harry. (Now I just deride Glee because it's a terrible show that should have stopped after 1 season. :rolleyes: )

I will however note that in my insular college life, where the campus living scene was frequently compared to Harry Potter's house system, a freakishly large number of people hooked up freshman year and stayed together, as was the case with 3 couples from my house and class, married now 14 years after freshman orientation. I on the other hand ditched my high school boyfriend when I got to college and didn't look back, because the relationship no longer worked once we had matured and moved into a different context from high school.

[Zman1863]

I think the general implication is that Hermione needs someone intellectual.

The problem is that Hermione is overly intellectual for the world she inhabits. Her intelligence and questioning nature is presented as a a strength and weakness. She always knew the right answer, but there was always something intangible lacking in her knowledge of the world. Certainly Ron doesn't fill all the gaps. But neither does Harry.

[Gneisenau]

The problem is that Hermione is overly intellectual for the world she inhabits. Her intelligence and questioning nature is presented as a a strength and weakness. She always knew the right answer, but there was always something intangible lacking in her knowledge of the world. Certainly Ron doesn't fill all the gaps. But neither does Harry.

My problem is I'm not convinced that an intellectual person seeking a partner, desires one that is equally as intellectual. They could have always made Hermione single and not interested in a partner as an alternative.

[Newstar]

The problem is that Hermione is overly intellectual for the world she inhabits. Her intelligence and questioning nature is presented as a a strength and weakness. She always knew the right answer, but there was always something intangible lacking in her knowledge of the world. Certainly Ron doesn't fill all the gaps. But neither does Harry.

Pretty much this. Ron isn't an intellectual match for Hermione, but then, neither is Harry.

Of the age-appropriate male characters in HP, who would have been an intellectual match for Hermione?

They could have always made Hermione single and not interested in a partner as an alternative.

Exactly. Why is it a Ron/Hermione vs. Harry/Hermione binary? Why does she have to wind up with one or the other? Why can't she wind up with someone else, or with no one at all?

[Zman1863]

My problem is I'm not convinced that an intellectual person seeking a partner, desires one that is equally as intellectual. They could have always made Hermione single and not interested in a partner as an alternative.

Pretty much this. Ron isn't an intellectual match for Hermione, but then, neither is Harry.

Exactly. Why is it a Ron/Hermione vs. Harry/Hermione binary? Why does she have to wind up with one or the other? Why can't she wind up with someone else, or with no one at all?

I agree. Which is why I still doubt that Rowling actually said what is being attributed to her since we don't have the full interview yet. If it had been a male author saying "My female character would not have worked out with one major male character therefore she has to end up with my other major male character" I think there would have been even more of a backlash. I can't believe that Rowling has fallen into such a simplistic view of her own characters.

[Shryke]

This is my problem with it as well. Everyone knows a couple or two that got together in high school and it worked out, but you don't remember the many, many other relationships that didn't work out because of sample bias. (My grandparents met in high school and divorced ~20 years later after an unhappy marriage, but even so, I never heard them talk about the sweethearts they may have had that didn't work out.) I used to deride Glee because it seemed like the couples would get together and break up within an episode, and then I started teaching high school and realized that's what actually happens, in which case Order of the Phoenix is probably the most irritatingly accurate portray of teenage Harry. (Now I just deride Glee because it's a terrible show that should have stopped after 1 season. :rolleyes: )

I will however note that in my insular college life, where the campus living scene was frequently compared to Harry Potter's house system, a freakishly large number of people hooked up freshman year and stayed together, as was the case with 3 couples from my house and class, married now 14 years after freshman orientation. I on the other hand ditched my high school boyfriend when I got to college and didn't look back, because the relationship no longer worked once we had matured and moved into a different context from high school.

My experience has been that college relationships are alot more durable then high school ones.

It's too late at night for me to even begin to speculate why. Maybe they fuck quicker and so there's less drama and bullshit?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Pretty much this. Ron isn't an intellectual match for Hermione, but then, neither is Harry.

But then who is?

Why can't she wind up with someone else, or with no one at all?

Because of the narrative. Stories are made that way.

In real-life, full credit for the point. It is storytelling though, you know.

[Gneisenau]

But then who is?

Because of the narrative. Stories are made that way.

In real-life, full credit for the point. It is storytelling though, you know.

Probably no one, though wasn't she dating Viktor Krum ?