[BOOK SPOILERS] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[kissdbyfire]

Satin is a loss. Like I said before about women, if they had someone go through these scripts for anything that marginalizes people for no damn reason at all, imagine the improvement. These choices they make have nothing to do with the actual story, where that's the culture doing that to the characters. This is THEM doing it to the characters.

Cutting Satin really pissed me off, I really like him and his exchanges with Jon. A few years back, someone (I think it was tze) proposed that there could be more to Satin than met the eye. The argument was that not only he could read and write, but that the one thing he wasn't very good at was to keep the fire burning in Jon's chambers, which could indicate that he's not used to serve other people. On top of that, during Alys and Sigorn's wedding Satin knows how to behave, how to carry himself and that could also indicate a higher birth. If I recall correctly, it was even speculated if he could be Oberyn's bastard.

And I totally agree, someone should check their scripts, it would make a difference. And even though I don't think it would make their writing any better, at least we wouldn't have all these crappy choices they make again and again.

I am kind of wondering if Olly is there for kill the boy. You know D&D, figurative, symbolic, literal, what's the difference?

On a random side note of concern in reguards to HBO, just saw the new True Detectives trailer and I am not buying it.

As in, Jon will actually 'kill a boy'? Oh dear me... The worst part it, it's not beyond them, as you've pointed out.

:uhoh:

[Ser Creighton]

I'm not the kind of person who is paranoid about these things but...

they cut Satin, the one guy whose sexuality is barely mentioned and he's definitely proving others that the fact he was a prostitute once matters little as he's very capable and skilled.

they cut Quentyn, the Dornish virgin who is afraid of his own penis.

they cut Arianne. Despite she's the perfect character for sexposition, they already eliminated the fact Dorne can be ruled by a woman in past season, as they made Oberyn's father the one in charge. This sounds like a very arbitrary change.

they cut JonCon, the one character that is likely to punch you on the face if you ever mock his sexuality and hasn't probably had sex in more than a decade.

I mean, there is a pattern there, even if they didn't intentionally do it. It's like if they can't sexualize it, it's not worthy.

It would be intresting if the faith came down on the brothels and Olyver got sent to the wall or fled there. He could play Satin. I doubt it happens, but they subtract a male prositute at the wall and add male prostitute in KL to give Fin something to do and to show he is gay... again... in case you forgot. Like the Renly scene, or the other Renly scene, or the Marg, Renly Loras scene, or the Sansa Loras scene, or theLoras forgets Renly and has sex with Olyver scene or the other Olyver, Loras, scene with a guest apperance by Marg.

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

Season 1 was very good.Not perfect, but then again,Nothing is perfect.

Once the show exploded, it seems D&D's egos have exploded exponentially because they know whatever the throw on that screen,it will be praised and worshiped.

This is no longer a show, it's a collection of scenes.Big scenes.They don't write in favor of continuity and consistency.It's like they come up with what scenes they want to have the show, whether made up or from the book, and they proceed to build around those scenes.

Like the very well known example of a pregnant Talisa being stabbed in the belly during the Red Wedding.

"We want a pregnant woman stabbed in the belly in the RW, let's write..."

Another example is the whole season 3 Theon/Ramsay arc and torture porn.

I remember wondering where Theon was in the books and reading suddenly his ADWD chapters and realizing what happened to him was very haunting and it shook me.It also had subtlety.I don't think it was ever explicitly confirmed that he was gelded?Correct me if I'm wrong.

But nooo, D&D had to confirm that in the most gratuitous way on screen.(Dick in a box, anyone?)

As many of you say, this show is just "shock value"...

P.S -

All this talk about Talisa reminded me of Jeyne Westerling.

This change Martin has talked about planning to do in the story, anyone here think that maybe Jeyne Westerling is involved?Anyone here think she will play some very important role in the books?What if she was indeed pregnant?

Now THAT is a change that D&D can't "reverse" or "write around "no matter how much they will try.

[kissdbyfire]

It would be intresting if the faith came down on the brothels and Olyver got sent to the wall or fled there. He could play Satin. I doubt it happens, but they subtract a male prositute at the wall and add male prostitute in KL to give Fin something to do and to show he is gay... again... in case you forgot. Like the Renly scene, or the other Renly scene, or the Marg, Renly Loras scene, or the Sansa Loras scene, or theLoras forgets Renly and has sex with Olyver scene or the other Olyver, Loras, scene with a guest apperance by Marg.

If they do this, and I don't think they will, it will only make matters even worse for me because those two characters are two completely different people.

[A Highborn Maid]

What are they doing with Cersei this season? Seems like they're trying to keep her 'mastermind' image in favour of the mentally unstable train-wreck we got in Feast. Don't know whether that's good or not, but it does seem like they're straying a lot and her plot is losing its Shakespearean humble-the-mentally-ill-monarch theme the books captured so well.

The constant gay scenes are strange - I feel like I'm watching a medieval version of Queer as Folk, minus the compelling characterizations.

[Good Guy Garlan]

On a random side note of concern in reguards to HBO, just saw the new True Detectives trailer and I am not buying it.

Why? I liked it, but then again, I thought the first season was massively overrated

[kissdbyfire]

<snip>

P.S -

All this talk about Talisa reminded me of Jeyne Westerling.

This change Martin has talked about planning to do in the story, anyone here think that maybe Jeyne Westerling is involved?Anyone here think she will play some very important role in the books?What if she was indeed pregnant?

Now THAT is a change that D&D can't "reverse" or "write around "no matter how much they will try.

I think it's possible. In a way, it would be brilliant even. When Martin gave that interview (to EW, I think) he said something about this idea of his feeling very organic. He knows how Cat's and Jaime's descriptions of Jeyne and her physical attributes has been made into a thing because he's been asked about it (I think it's just a minor slip like the gender of horses and the colour of eyes). And we hear Jeyne's mum (name?) tell Jaime about the contraceptive, but we don't know for sure what happened. It would be easy for Martin to get out of that, imo.

[Tijgy]

(...)

Another example is the whole season 3 Theon/Ramsay arc and torture porn.

I remember wondering where Theon was in the books and reading suddenly his ADWD chapters and realizing what happened to him was very haunting and it shook me.It also had subtlety.I don't think it was ever explicitly confirmed that he was gelded?Correct me if I'm wrong.

But nooo, D&D had to confirm that in the most gratuitous way on screen.(Dick in a box, anyone?)

(...)

Those torture scenes were indeed too much. I also prefer the more subtle way GRRM chose to expose those torture (It is again proven the sadists is not GRRM but D&D. They like to show it directly).

But I like his monologue in that tunnel (about he made the wrong choice, ...) and also the scene where he was shaving Ramsay (but again why would Ramsay tell about the fact his father murdered Robb. Can you not be silent about your sins? I starting to think the most smart/cunning/sneaky person of Westeros is in fact Eddard. If R+L=J is true, he kept that secret for how many years? He is the only who can keep secret. Look at this, people who think Ned was the most stupid person of all because he went to Cersei.

And the other scene I liked was Moat Caitlin but that was from the books.

[Ser Creighton]

Cutting Satin really pissed me off, I really like him and his exchanges with Jon. A few years back, someone (I think it was tze) proposed that there could be more to Satin than met the eye. The argument was that not only he could read and write, but that the one thing he wasn't very good at was to keep the fire burning in Jon's chambers, which could indicate that he's not used to serve other people. On top of that, during Alys and Sigorn's wedding Satin knows how to behave, how to carry himself and that could also indicate a higher birth. If I recall correctly, it was even speculated if he could be Oberyn's bastard.

And I totally agree, someone should check their scripts, it would make a difference. And even though I don't think it would make their writing any better, at least we wouldn't have all these crappy choices they make again and again.

As in, Jon will actually 'kill a boy'? Oh dear me... The worst part it, it's not beyond them, as you've pointed out.

:uhoh:

It's been a concern ever since they introduced Olly at least for me. And then they show Jon training him this season and being all buddy buddy with him. Though I am not sure Jon kills him, but maybe sends him on a dangerous mission, or someone kills him like Mel. Just kind of wondering why is he there, and in a season with an episode titled Kill the Boy, which is totally associated with Jon and the Watch, it becomes a concern. Kill the boy does not fit show Jon all that well. He is much older than book Jon, more mature, more experienced, less teenage indecisiveness, his ideals are more affirmed and realistic, and so on. I can't see anyone saying it's time to grow up and be a man to him, he is pushing 30. From season 2 till know their has been a huge change in his character. He has the command vibe going, he's been on rangings, he scouted for rangings, been a prisoner, a spy, led a raid on crasters, commanded the wall, was the hero of the battle of castle black, made command choices with Grenn, even though he knew he could die, chose to go to Mance and talk, and so on.

There is no whiff of teenage inexperienced boy on him, he is an experienced man of the Watch now. I can't even figure out why anyone at the wall supposedly hates him except Slynt. He was nice to the Wildling girl and buried her. He was the guy that warned them about the attack and they did not listen. Thorne admitted he was wrong. He led the raid to Crasters, he commanded the top of the wall, he made sure the tunnel was secure, and he fought on the ground as well, when the watch was being overwhelmed and Thorne went down. Which reminds me why in hell is Thorne talking to Slynt? Slynt didn't fight he ran and hid and Sam saw him do it, and nobody saw him fight. Thorne is a huge turd, but the show never made him out to be a coward or a friend to cowards. Everyone on the top of the wall saw his indecision as well.

I would not expect Thorne to be all buddy buddy with Jon, but where is the head nod? He earned a head Nod, even Thorne earned a head nod at the battle, it should of been a mutual head nod and then they go back to hating eachother.

[Cas Stark]

I'm not the kind of person who is paranoid about these things but...

they cut Satin, the one guy whose sexuality is barely mentioned and he's definitely proving others that the fact he was a prostitute once matters little as he's very capable and skilled.

they cut Quentyn, the Dornish virgin who is afraid of his own penis.

they cut Arianne. Despite she's the perfect character for sexposition, they already eliminated the fact Dorne can be ruled by a woman in past season, as they made Oberyn's father the one in charge. This sounds like a very arbitrary change.

they cut JonCon, the one character that is likely to punch you on the face if you ever mock his sexuality and hasn't probably had sex in more than a decade.

I mean, there is a pattern there, even if they didn't intentionally do it. It's like if they can't sexualize it, it's not worthy.

I think it's all unintentional, because they're "progressive" and modern and believe in diversity and girrl power. But, let's recap.

Carol Lannister, has effectively been desexed. She's rejecting Larry, and it's highly, highly unlikely that she's going to be trading sex for favors.

Marg, on the other hand has almost been turned into the age old stereotype of the conniving slut. She's all sexed up, and not very likeable anymore.

Dany seems to be able to have sex and it's positive, but they make her veer from dominatrix take of your clothes to post coital all covered up, but she's the closet we see to anything that approaches normal sex except for the other stereotype of the good mother/earth mother married and safe Cat Stark.

Otherwise we got a lot of WHORES all over the fucking place, we got a funny whore: dead; we got Ros, the smart whore, dead; we got the Mole Town mean whore: dead, we got Ramsay's whorish torture buddy, one down, one to go, Dothraki ex whore: dead.

And that leaves us with two other stereotypes, tom girl Arya and virginal Sansa, who the minute we get a HINT of growing up Sansa, she goes all crazy train goth girl throwing around knowing looks at Batfinger, I know what you want. Kay Sansa, that's not too subtle.

And, "Yara" is kind of a desexed outlier right now.

I mean, really? And truly, I try hard to stay away from criticism of the sexist/racist/stereotypical type because I find people can be too sensitive on these subjects, but, I feel like the stereotypes of tropes are piled up like dead bodies at this point.

[Ser Creighton]

If they do this, and I don't think they will, it will only make matters even worse for me because those two characters are two completely different people.

It would depend on if they showed growth with the character for me. I don't know what Satin was like in a Brothel, I know what he was like at the Wall. You know maybe he is not everything he appears to be, which is part of Satins story, don't judge a book by it's cover so to speak. He's from a brothel, he smells nice, but he shows a toughness early on. I doubt it happens as well. But I figure we will see some cast subtracted from the wall again and I am guessing some other members will go there at some point.

[Johnsmith]

Ramsey was given much and less detail, there are some terrifyiong words used describing his horrors but castration was not one of them.

RW was far more horrific, a much better contrast in the books. Definitely not of the modelled prego stabbing.

I hated how the episode ended with Catalin Tully that was truly bizzare, WTF comatose. She could have fainted before being drowned, or atleast cut her own throat. Definitely not those ravens clawing at her face

Season one almost every line used came out of the books every sceen was in the books. Riverrun was glossed through quickly, production values, etc, they would have drawn. But the 15ish horses used to capture Jamie were ugh. Although more was promised :).

Then Lightfinger became traversing Wiessteroff at speeds only Lightfinger can manage, things began changing more and more

[Le Cygne]

And that leaves us with two other stereotypes, tom girl Arya and virginal Sansa, who the minute we get a HINT of growing up Sansa, she goes all crazy train goth girl throwing around knowing looks at Batfinger, I know what you want. Kay Sansa, that's not too subtle.

I know what you want. What about what she wants? They've made her story about sex, but not about her.

Sexual objectification is the viewing of people solely as de-personalised objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/faq-what-is-sexual-objectification/

[kissdbyfire]

It's been a concern ever since they introduced Olly at least for me. And then they show Jon training him this season and being all buddy buddy with him. Though I am not sure Jon kills him, but maybe sends him on a dangerous mission, or someone kills him like Mel. Just kind of wondering why is he there, and in a season with an episode titled Kill the Boy, which is totally associated with Jon and the Watch, it becomes a concern. Kill the boy does not fit show Jon all that well. He is much older than book Jon, more mature, more experienced, less teenage indecisiveness, his ideals are more affirmed and realistic, and so on. I can't see anyone saying it's time to grow up and be a man to him, he is pushing 30. From season 2 till know their has been a huge change in his character. He has the command vibe going, he's been on rangings, he scouted for rangings, been a prisoner, a spy, led a raid on crasters, commanded the wall, was the hero of the battle of castle black, made command choices with Grenn, even though he knew he could die, chose to go to Mance and talk, and so on.

There is no whiff of teenage inexperienced boy on him, he is an experienced man of the Watch now. I can't even figure out why anyone at the wall supposedly hates him except Slynt. He was nice to the Wildling girl and buried her. He was the guy that warned them about the attack and they did not listen. Thorne admitted he was wrong. He led the raid to Crasters, he commanded the top of the wall, he made sure the tunnel was secure, and he fought on the ground as well, when the watch was being overwhelmed and Thorne went down. Which reminds me why in hell is Thorne talking to Slynt? Slynt didn't fight he ran and hid and Sam saw him do it, and nobody saw him fight. Thorne is a huge turd, but the show never made him out to be a coward or a friend to cowards. Everyone on the top of the wall saw his indecision as well.

I would not expect Thorne to be all buddy buddy with Jon, but where is the head nod? He earned a head Nod, even Thorne earned a head nod at the battle, it should of been a mutual head nod and then they go back to hating eachother.

Yes, excellent points. Using the 'kill the boy' with show!Jon would be so ridiculous! So much so that they'll probably do just that. And to take out some of the awkwardness, it will go like this:

MA - 'Jon, you have to kill the boy and let the man be born!'

Jon - 'Maester Aemon, I am not a boy!'

MA - 'I'm 102 years old, everyone is a boy to me!

And since you've mentioned some of last year's action, I'll rant about something in series 4 that was so completely idiotic I was literally yelling at the TV.

When the NW is trying to decide what to do about the wildling threat, Jon suggests that they seal the gate!!!

Yeah, coz that fits perfectly with Jon's character, and there was no one else to say the damn stupid line. *sigh*

And that brings me to yet another issue... When they finally do use lines from the books, they manage to fuck those up too!

It would depend on if they showed growth with the character for me. I don't know what Satin was like in a Brothel, I know what he was like at the Wall. You know maybe he is not everything he appears to be, which is part of Satins story, don't judge a book by it's cover so to speak. He's from a brothel, he smells nice, but he shows a toughness early on. I doubt it happens as well. But I figure we will see some cast subtracted from the wall again and I am guessing some other members will go there at some point.

Excellent points.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I fear they will make Thorne part of FTW. He's an idiot but he did his duty and obeyed Jon.

Why? I liked it, but then again, I thought the first season was massively overrated

You're name and title, I can't even :lmao:

I think it's all unintentional, because they're "progressive" and modern and believe in diversity and girrl power. But, let's recap.

[...]

Don't forget Ygritte. The moment she lost Jon's dick she became nuts and bitter. Even the Thenns, the fooking cannibals, were getting tired of her shit.

*secret Thenn meeting*

"Us believe ginger minger girl is crazy. We look volunteers to give her some sex"

"No. She scary. She bite my dick and tear it off"

"But we are cannibals and evil. We not affraid"

"She be the woman scorned. You did not read tv tropes, right?"

[Good Guy Garlan]

You're name and title, I can't even :lmao:

Can you see the fish?

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, excellent points. Using the 'kill the boy' with show!Jon would be so ridiculous! So much so that they'll probably do just that. And to take out some of the awkwardness, it will go like this:

MA - 'Jon, you have to kill the boy and let the man be born!'

Jon - 'Maester Aemon, I am not a boy!'

MA - 'I'm 102 years old, everyone is a boy to me!

And since you've mentioned some of last year's action, I'll rant about something in series 4 that was so completely idiotic I was literally yelling at the TV.

When the NW is trying to decide what to do about the wildling threat, Jon suggests that they seal the gate!!!

Yeah, coz that fits perfectly with Jon's character, and there was no one else to say the damn stupid line. *sigh*

And that brings me to yet another issue... When they finally do use lines from the books, they manage to fuck those up too!Excellent points.

Yes, excellent points. Using the 'kill the boy' with show!Jon would be so ridiculous! So much so that they'll probably do just that. And to take out some of the awkwardness, it will go like this:

MA - 'Jon, you have to kill the boy and let the man be born!'

Jon - 'Maester Aemon, I am not a boy!'

MA - 'I'm 102 years old, everyone is a boy to me!

And since you've mentioned some of last year's action, I'll rant about something in series 4 that was so completely idiotic I was literally yelling at the TV.

When the NW is trying to decide what to do about the wildling threat, Jon suggests that they seal the gate!!!

Yeah, coz that fits perfectly with Jon's character, and there was no one else to say the damn stupid line. *sigh*

And that brings me to yet another issue... When they finally do use lines from the books, they manage to fuck those up too!Excellent points.

I now hope Aemon says that to Jon, I am going to wait for it and, I will be disappointed if it does not happen.

Seal the gates was rather random though it was from the books. Though it was the first builder who suggested it and Jon suggested not sealing the gates. They switched because... I have no idea why they switched it, or what was the point at all. But if I was going to complain about the gates it was the repeated use of Cold rolled steel. Ok got it the first 5 times, you don't need to keep telling me what the gate is made of, it doesn't even matter really. The gate never broke, they lifted it open, well Mag did. Which you know, probably should of tried that to begin with. But really you can just say gates, you don't need to keep telling me what they are made of.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Can you see the fish?

Not but... it's better that way :lol:

[Modesty Lannister]

People, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. I totally concur. I have this picture in my head of D&D having an ongoing bet that they must omit and/or change every iconic line from the books. I'm baffled to see two writers who never achieved popularity GRRM has been enjoying, constantly trying to outwrite him. I am gleeful that he has announced a twist that they will not able to include into the show. GRRM has been saying from the very onset of the show that D&D shouldn't change certain things, because there would be no way back later. Now, they have reached a point on no return. He made that very clear. But, do they care? No. They have their focus groups - Arya X screen time, Sansa Y screen time, Jon Snow Z screen time, Cersei XYZ screen time, Daenerys ZYX screen time. All the rest is a filler to them that has to satisfy "the minorities". So, the Hispanics got Dorne. African Americans got Missandei and Greyworm. Gay community got Olyvar and Loras. And somehow, as you guys pointed out, D&D forget how patronising and offensive this all is. Dorne with no gender equality, non-white and gay people reduced to horrible stereotypes. GRRM's work deserves better. Much better. The only thing that cheers me up is that Peter Dinklage managed to be as obnoxious as Tyrion is after killing Tywin. Kudos.

[HexMachina]

Not but... it's better that way :lol:

It's in the display name, after "Fish". Bravo, I say. If I had a hat, I'd take off to you, so in lieu of that... :bowdown: