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kissdbyfire

Rant & Rave Without Repercussion [book and show spoilers]

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36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There is zero evidence that the Ds "tried really hard". They're both talentless and lazy and in a hurry to finish, and it shows. 

The missing piece of information is how much detail did Martin give them, was it a few bullet points or was it more story and plot?  Has there been a breach in the working relationship where either the showrunners weren't interested in Martin's input or Martin was holding back the details? 

The drop in quality is significant and obvious and tied to loss of the book material, so I do think Martin bears some level of responsibility here considering he told everyone the show would never outpace his books, so everyone including the hack showrunners expected to have the books to adapt.  That doesn't change the fact that the showrunners ARE hacks and who, one way or another, failed the show through lazy script writing.

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27 minutes ago, DirePenguin said:

I lol so bad

 

Why oh Why couldn't HBO have forgotten about the Ds and found some people with half an interest in finishing the show up in a decent manner?  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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I completely agree with @kissdbyfire that the Ds must have lifted R+L = J off this forum to bag the rights. If these bloody clowns had had the wits to figure this out by themselves, then the writing just wouldn't be this bad.

There may be merit in discussing GRRM's contribution to the story once we got past the books, but nobody with understanding and appreciation of the world the story is set in would possibly come up with:

The sand snakes killing Doran and Tristan

Littlefinger making a match between the Boltons and Sansa

The Umbers killing Shaggy Dog and handing over Rickon

Ramsay killing Roose in front of the Karstark

Sansa's lack of courtesies with Dany

In fact everyone in WF behaving the way they did in front of Dany

Littlefinger hanging around WF

Sansa seemingly de facto in charge of the Vale (might have been more credible if she kept Sweet Robin around)

Dany turning fireproof again in Vaes Dothrak, why not have Drogon show up instead?

Dany granting the Iron Islands independence at end S6 and responding to Tyrion's concerns about the other kingdoms also sending independence by saying "they have to ask" only to do a handbrake u-turn next season when the North "asks"

The war for the Dawn with 3 more episodes to go

Those battle tactics

21st century Ballistas

 

Just to name a few

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8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The missing piece of information is how much detail did Martin give them, was it a few bullet points or was it more story and plot? 

I think there may be a lot more we don’t know besides this. 

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Has there been a breach in the working relationship where either the showrunners weren't interested in Martin's input or Martin was holding back the details? 

I’m not sure we will ever learn. Maybe many years from now? I think there’s a fair chance that both happened. Wasn’t there an interview where Martin talked about telling the Ds that, because of some changes they were making (early on), the butterflies would turn into dragons? I don’t think it’s beyond the realm of possibility that the Ds decided to change [many] things against Martin’s advice, and ended up writing themselves into several corners. And if their working relationship soured some, I suppose it is possible that Martin became increasingly unwilling to share more than what he had to. This is, of course, pure speculation. 

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The drop in quality is significant and obvious and tied to loss of the book material, so I do think Martin bears some level of responsibility here considering he told everyone the show would never outpace his books,

I agree. But I also think that where it concerns the show overtaking the books, all parties (Martin, David & Dan, and HBO) bear some responsibility. 

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

so everyone including the hack showrunners expected to have the books to adapt.

True. But the bottom line for me is, good writers could make it work. In fact, good writers could make it work using only the published material. For example, say writers are going to start adapting the novels when the Ds did. They are counting on TWoW and ADoS being out before they catch up, but same scenario happens and the show is going to overtake the novels. Even if the author refuses to give them anything, they would still be able to finish and present a coherent and interesting story. Sure, it won’t be the book story, but so what? I’d rather a million times have “a” good story than a piece of shit incoherent mess of a version of “the” [book] story. :dunno:

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

  That doesn't change the fact that the showrunners ARE hacks and who, one way or another, failed the show through lazy script writing.

Lazy, unimaginative, boring, and arrogant. 

4 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

I completely agree with @kissdbyfire that the Ds must have lifted R+L = J off this forum to bag the rights. If these bloody clowns had had the wits to figure this out by themselves, then the writing just wouldn't be this bad.

That’s it, in a nutshell. 

All their talk about loving the books, the story, yadda yadda yadda, it’s bollocks. If they ever read all the books, they really didn’t understand most of it. 

Remember series 5 ep 9? When they threw Martin under the bus because of Shireen? Spineless. There had been backlash because of Sansa Bolton, and to avoid more criticism, they said, “when Martin told us this”, referring to Shireen burning. Now I ask you all, is there anyone who has had read the books that has any doubts that Shireen will burn? There’s been endless discussion/topics about it, always centred on who will do it, not will it happen. And yet, David and Dan were shocked when Martin told them Shireen burns, and that’s the level of understanding they have of the story. :rolleyes:

4 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

There may be merit in discussing GRRM's contribution to the story once we got past the books, but nobody with understanding and appreciation of the world the story is set in would possibly come up with:

The sand snakes killing Doran and Tristan

Littlefinger making a match between the Boltons and Sansa

The Umbers killing Shaggy Dog and handing over Rickon

Ramsay killing Roose in front of the Karstark

Sansa's lack of courtesies with Dany

In fact everyone in WF behaving the way they did in front of Dany

Littlefinger hanging around WF

Sansa seemingly de facto in charge of the Vale (might have been more credible if she kept Sweet Robin around)

Dany turning fireproof again in Vaes Dothrak, why not have Drogon show up instead?

Dany granting the Iron Islands independence at end S6 and responding to Tyrion's concerns about the other kingdoms also sending independence by saying "they have to ask" only to do a handbrake u-turn next season when the North "asks"

The war for the Dawn with 3 more episodes to go

Those battle tactics

21st century Ballistas

 

Just to name a few

Spot on! 

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9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The drop in quality is significant and obvious and tied to loss of the book material, so I do think Martin bears some level of responsibility here considering he told everyone the show would never outpace his books, so everyone including the hack showrunners expected to have the books to adapt.

This.  A million times this.

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Going back to the previous mess of an episode. I saw these comments on youtube and laughed my ass off:
 
"World War Z Zombies can take out all of the Dothraki and most of the Unsullied, but Sam with a dagger is FINE. Ok."
 
"They wiped out every dothraki and unsullied in 20 minutes, couldn't kill Sam crying on the floor for an hour"
 
 

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On 5/9/2019 at 5:19 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Sansa's attitude towards Daenerys seems to be operating under the assumption that ultra-bitch, extra sly Cersei and Euron's super-navy can't and won't launch an invasion of the North.

In Sansa's defense, Dany poses a larger threat to Northern independence.  2 Dragons are much more of a threat than a navy and any southern army.

The Iron Fleet cannot fight on land.  And no southern army has ever successfully invaded, let alone conquered the North.

Plus Euron and Cersei are both leaders, and can be divided.

But Sansa knows there will be fighting down south.  Sansa expects Dany to win.  If by some chance Dany loses, Cersei and Euron would be weakened to the point of not being able to launch an attack on the North.

 

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11 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

 

In Sansa's defense, Dany poses a larger threat to Northern independence.  2 Dragons are much more of a threat than a navy and any southern army.

The Iron Fleet cannot fight on land.  And no southern army has ever successfully invaded, let alone conquered the North.

Plus Euron and Cersei are both leaders, and can be divided.

But Sansa knows there will be fighting down south.  Sansa expects Dany to win.  If by some chance Dany loses, Cersei and Euron would be weakened to the point of not being able to launch an attack on the North.

 

I wish we had gotten a better arc behind Sansa suddenly being all in for Northern independence. I don’t disagree that’s her goal, but she never got much of a chance to develop it. 

Now we’re being hit over the head with the idea that northern independence has been her goal all along, when last season she was just kind of pissed that Jon was leaving her behind. 

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17 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I wish we had gotten a better arc behind Sansa suddenly being all in for Northern independence. I don’t disagree that’s her goal, but she never got much of a chance to develop it. 

Now we’re being hit over the head with the idea that northern independence has been her goal all along, when last season she was just kind of pissed that Jon was leaving her behind. 

Hmm... very true.  Sansa's desire for independence wasn't given much of a chance to develop.  There were maybe a couple of lines in S7.  But that was about it.  We are left to try to fill in the gaps.  Oh, but for 7 more episodes :)

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17 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I wish we had gotten a better arc behind Sansa suddenly being all in for Northern independence. I don’t disagree that’s her goal, but she never got much of a chance to develop it. 

Now we’re being hit over the head with the idea that northern independence has been her goal all along, when last season she was just kind of pissed that Jon was leaving her behind. 

This.

Her "Northern Independence"-arc came more or less out of the blue in S8 (last season she was mainly focused on Jon and by extension, herself not loosing the support they've gained. Fighting to keep your support however is not the same as relentlessly pushing for independence), as was her suddenly forgetting the "smile and wave"-game she's become so adept at during all of her time in Kings Landing: Talk shit, scheme and glare at people behind their back Sansa, not visibly to their face! Daenerys is hardly a master at playing the game, but even she notices that Sansa dislikes her and "wants her gone and Jon on the throne".

If the show wants us to believe that Sansa has become a clever schemer by teaching herself stuff from Cersei and Littlefinger, it's doing a really bad job at it. 

I've always pitied Sansa and ultimately wished for her to find some happiness. Then S7 and S8 happened and now I basically no longer recognize the character any longer, let alone like her. 

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

This.

Her "Northern Independence"-arc came more or less out of the blue in S8 (last season she was mainly focused on Jon and by extension, herself not loosing the support they've gained. Fighting to keep your support however is not the same as relentlessly pushing for independence), as was her suddenly forgetting the "smile and wave"-game she's become so adept at during all of her time in Kings Landing: Talk shit, scheme and glare at people behind their back Sansa, not visibly to their face! Daenerys is hardly a master at playing the game, but even she notices that Sansa dislikes her and "wants her gone and Jon on the throne".

If the show wants us to believe that Sansa has become a clever schemer by teaching herself stuff from Cersei and Littlefinger, it's doing a really bad job at it. 

I've always pitied Sansa and ultimately wished for her to find some happiness. Then S7 and S8 happened and now I basically no longer recognize the character any longer, let alone like her. 

Exactly. I think the lack of any kind of explanation for her insistence on northern independence is part of the reason people think she’s being shady, working towards the IT herself, etc. 

I don’t think for a second she wants the IT. She wants to be left alone in the North, at Winterfell, and not be forced to marry anyone.  

Her recent behavior is not the behavior of someone who has learned to use subversion to play the game, a la Littlefinger. 

She’s worried, and close to panicking over her own safety, and the safety of her family. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 10:24 PM, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

ditto I cant rewatch it either !

We should open a support-group :D I also can't bring myself to rewatch it.

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7 minutes ago, Amris said:

We should open a support-group :D I also can't bring myself to rewatch it.

This forum essentially is my support-group at this point.

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Preston makes a good point on how nobody is kneeling anymore, neither to show devotion, respect, gratitude or submission.

1. You'd think a show, where apologists whines that they can't use characters' inner monologue as opposed to the book, would make use of such visual details. Apparently stand/walk/sit and talk is the way to go. "You may not notice - but your brain does"

2. Then if characters don't kneel to their lords, and don't even know about other lords, like who rules the stormlands, it make sense, in a show where the final battle is the one for the Iron Throne. I can already imagine how the conclusion will affect the folks all over the Seven Kingdoms:
"Who won, again?"
"What's her name -- Khaleesi?"
"I think that Stone guy... no, wait, Snow?"
"So, no Pirate parades anymore?" 

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I really just don't know what to say. The show's been bad for several seasons now, but I watch as I've found the stupidity of the show somewhat funny. I've also looked forward to coming into this thread and reading/contributing to the mockery of the episode.

But, the last episode was actually painful to watch. They've thoroughly ruined every character and absolutely nothing makes any sense anymore.

The starbucks cup is enigmatic of a much bigger problem with the show. D&D obviously surround themselves with only yes men, and as we've seen with actors who died off, criticism or questioning surely lead to dismissal.

I'm sure a few people saw the starbucks cup, whether live or on the dailies. None dared question. If it was there, it must mean that D&D wanted it there. Same reason why no on involved in the production said, "Um, I don't think that's how ballista work."

 

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I don't know, it just seems good storytelling might be to plan this shit out a bit even if Martin wasn't there to help. I mean, I always preferred the political stories to the (boring in my opinion) White Walkers. Still, the way the WW threat is discarded after one battle (it feels like) seems really dumb given the thematic arch of the show and books: that petty political squabbles mean nothing in the face of the Army of Darkness. I mean, characters say these kinds of lines throughout the books and show. 

But I think I'd be totally okay with the undead threat being finished before the battle for King's Landing. It just seems that you need to be thinking a season or two ahead (which means back around season five, they had this sketched out, which they clearly didn't). At the end of Season 7, the WW threat should be defeated (you know, a season arc/climax), then the short 8th season is about the fall of Dany/the retaking of King's Landing, etc.

Then again, fleshing out scenes and character motivation requires a good writer, and the good writer left the building around season 5.

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22 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

I completely agree with @kissdbyfire that the Ds must have lifted R+L = J off this forum to bag the rights. If these bloody clowns had had the wits to figure this out by themselves, then the writing just wouldn't be this bad.

There may be merit in discussing GRRM's contribution to the story once we got past the books, but nobody with understanding and appreciation of the world the story is set in would possibly come up with:

The sand snakes killing Doran and Tristan

Littlefinger making a match between the Boltons and Sansa

The Umbers killing Shaggy Dog and handing over Rickon

Ramsay killing Roose in front of the Karstark

Sansa's lack of courtesies with Dany

In fact everyone in WF behaving the way they did in front of Dany

Littlefinger hanging around WF

Sansa seemingly de facto in charge of the Vale (might have been more credible if she kept Sweet Robin around)

Dany turning fireproof again in Vaes Dothrak, why not have Drogon show up instead?

Dany granting the Iron Islands independence at end S6 and responding to Tyrion's concerns about the other kingdoms also sending independence by saying "they have to ask" only to do a handbrake u-turn next season when the North "asks"

The war for the Dawn with 3 more episodes to go

Those battle tactics

21st century Ballistas

 

Just to name a few

Also, Bronn hitting the Dornish prince and getting away with basically a slap on the wrist.

That was the precise moment I realized they don't give a damn about the rules of their own universe.

OK, I haven't read the books, I just imagine they'd be different.

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The mechanics of plot and plot armor are supposed to be fairly well camouflaged.  You should not have the majority of your audience seeing that Dany had to lose a lot of her allies and dragons to make her even with Cersei.  We should see these things happen naturally, they shouldn't feel force and the plot reasons shouldn't feel so front and center.  

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