UK Politics: Drawing Priti Patterns

[mormont]

12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Pity the kid that's has to call Johnson dad.

He's gone to great lengths legally to ensure that at least one of them doesn't have to. 

You can tell the government are desperate over the Rutnam/Patel story, because they threw this bone out to distract people. But it has the potential to be a disaster for them. Patel acquired a reputation for the same sort of behaviour as International Development Secretary, and of course the fact that she was fired from that role for having secret meetings with Israeli officials that she hadn't even told her then-Prime Minister about does not do wonders for her credibility in a tribunal. It was an act of pure stupidity to appoint her to another role in government, but one suspects that was done because of, not despite, her past behaviour: that this government sees that sort of carry-on, particularly mistreatment of staff, as 'disruptive' and 'getting things done'.

tl;dr - as an HR professional, you could not pay me enough to work for this government. Cummings and Johnson have turned it into one of the worst employers in the country. But don't worry, after Brexit we'll all have to put up with this sort of thing at work.

[Rippounet]

@Bael's Bastard @dornishpen

Quote

I mean we definitely haven't been saying "l'shanah haba'ah b'Yerushalayim" (next year in Jerusalem) at the end of Pesach seders for hundreds of years because it's not important to us. And we definitely don't refer to ourselves as being in exile or a diaspora because reasons.

Oh, pu-lease. the year is 2020, you and I can literally go to Jerusalem for the week-end on a whim.
If you still see yourself as "in exile" it's definitely because of "reasons."

Quote

You don't speak for a single Jew, let alone "many."

I certainly don't want to, but neither do I want to pretend my family doesn't exist because we don't conform to your narrow vision of Judaism. I'm in a position to see the issue from multiple angles, and that leaves me less inclined to see malice where I can see foolishness or naivety.
I'm also in a position to see that some strands or aspects of Zionism are a threat to the long-term existence of Israel, and therefore that accusations of anti-semitism can be self-fulfilling.
So I don't want to condone Corbyn's actions, but I don't want to be too quick to condemn his words either.

[dornishpen]

5 hours ago, Rippounet said:

@Bael's Bastard @dornishpen

Oh, pu-lease. the year is 2020, you and I can literally go to Jerusalem for the week-end on a whim.
If you still see yourself as "in exile" it's definitely because of "reasons."

We are still in exile (galut) religiously because there is no temple in Jerusalem and so lots of the 613 mitzvot cannot be completed and do not currently apply. But religious zionists still see the creation of the state of Israel as a step closer to ending that and we aren't in exile physically anymore unless we choose to be since we can all make aliyah if we want to or have to. And rising antisemitism all over makes that have to seem more likely for a lot of us. My point though was how much that land is part of the religion and culture when you said that not all Jews want to be defined by Zionism when in fact Israel and Jerusalem are inextricably tied Jews and Judaism.

In terms of the ability to visit Jerusalem on a whim that is probably related to it being part of Israel now. Though possibly a French passport would be enough for you. There have been many historical periods where Jews have been barred from parts or all of Jerusalem such as the Kotel (western wall). While Jews may have fared better historically overall in the Muslim world than in Europe, we were still persecuted and the same kinds of persecutions, forced conversions, expulsions, pograms and massacres and that's without getting into the dhimmi thing. Of course everything got much worse around the time Israel was founded and the majority of Mizrachi Jews now live in Israel (and are the majority of Israeli Jews) and the Muslim world has almost no Jews.

For the record I do not in any way support building a third temple as that would require destroying the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosques on the Temple Mount and would definitely start a war.

[john]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

If you still see yourself as "in exile" it's definitely because of "reasons."

Reasons such as a member of a major political party implying they’re ignorant of history and failing to assimilate in a country they’ve settled in?

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I'm in a position to see the issue from multiple angles, and that leaves me less inclined to see malice where I can see foolishness or naivety.

Since when have you been inclined to see foolishness or naivety? You literally said any accusation of antisemitic language short of a dogwhistle was an example of silly extremism that you were seeking to expose. I even offered up carelessness as an explanation for Corbyn’s words but no, that’s clearly too extreme. All right, Corbyn was antisemitic due to naivety then, that better?

[polishgenius]

I mean fuck

[Rippounet]

6 hours ago, dornishpen said:

We are still in exile (galut) religiously because there is no temple in Jerusalem and so lots of the 613 mitzvot cannot be completed and do not currently apply. [...]

For the record I do not in any way support building a third temple as that would require destroying the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosques on the Temple Mount and would definitely start a war.

And I think you have explained the problem with the word "Zionist" right here, and why it can mean different things to different people.
As you're obviously aware, there is a world of difference between merely supporting the existence of Israel and adhering to some of the religious aspects of Zionism - with everything that can entail, including some of Israel's policies.
For people on the outside though, it can be easy to assume all Zionists support the worst Israeli policies on some level. And honestly the most vocal Zionists are often not exactly moderates (and I doubt those taking the time to berate a Palestinian ambassador are), so I personally get the conflation - regardless of whether it is malicious.
And when other people chime in and say that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism... It just makes everything worse. Not only do I do not know what they mean by "Zionism," but they may be (often unwittingly) condoning a very specific kind of Zionism.
All of this is just a long-winded way of explaining why context is crucial.

[Rorshach]

Probably late, as I haven't followed the discussion too much, but I was reminded of this (very long) article on Corbyn and antisemittism. 

Worth reading, I think. Apologies if it has been linked before. 

[john]

12 hours ago, Rippounet said:

And when other people chime in and say that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism... It just makes everything worse. Not only do I do not know what they mean by "Zionism," but they may be (often unwittingly) condoning a very specific kind of Zionism.
All of this is just a long-winded way of explaining why context is crucial.

Also necessary to be able to identify potentially antisemitic language shorn of context or intent, if you want to stop it being said. Hence why the Chakrabarti inquiry advised, and both Corbyn and the Labour Party agreed, not to use the word Zionist in this way any longer.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, Rorshach said:

Probably late, as I haven't followed the discussion too much, but I was reminded of this (very long) article on Corbyn and antisemittism. 

Worth reading, I think. Apologies if it has been linked before. 

Wow.  And Corbyn was the leader of the Labour party...

[DaveSumm]

8 hours ago, Rorshach said:

Probably late, as I haven't followed the discussion too much, but I was reminded of this (very long) article on Corbyn and antisemittism. 

Worth reading, I think. Apologies if it has been linked before. 

I’m still working my way through it, but so far this is precisely the article I’d hoped someone had written. Really good.  

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wow.  And Corbyn was the leader of the Labour party...

For reasons that escape me, he still is.

 

That essay is very enlightening for someone like me who has not really understood the whole antisemitism in Labour row.

[DaveSumm]

14 hours ago, Rorshach said:

Probably late, as I haven't followed the discussion too much, but I was reminded of this (very long) article on Corbyn and antisemittism. 

Worth reading, I think. Apologies if it has been linked before. 

I began pulling out quotes from that I was going to discuss, but to be honest I agree with the vast majority so it seems nit picky to bother now. It’s a really excellent summary of the issue. I basically agree with her conclusion, that Corbyn doesn’t believe he’s antisemitic. Just the fact that most of the ‘evidence’ comes down to public appearances and speeches that are public record, he’s made no effort to hide his actions. It seems like he’s been so entrenched in pro-Palestinian efforts for so long that he has a pretty huge blind spot when it comes to anyone he sees as fighting for the other side. And a sizeable antisemitic contingent have latched onto that and follow him as a result.
 

My only real departure from her conclusions was the ‘lacking irony’ video which has been debated here; I really can’t see how that’s the smoking gun some people think. My read is, the Palestinian gave a speech and said something ironic. Two Zionists (using Corbyn’s definition here) sat silent and then approached afterward, and Corbyn thought they missed the irony, and he didn’t agree with their view of the history of whatever it was. Genuinely confused at how anyone could think he suddenly switches to talking about all Jews at that point? Why would you say “probably lived in England all their lives” about an entire culture? 

But anyway, the article definitely convinced me it’s a very serious problem with Labour. Hopefully the next leader can deal with it swiftly and shift the narrative toward something that will win the next election (my vote would be to constantly bang on about the Tories selling off the NHS, repeatedly, again and again and again until we’re sick of hearing it, that how you get through to voters).

[john]

17 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Genuinely confused at how anyone could think he suddenly switches to talking about all Jews at that point? Why would you say “probably lived in England all their lives” about an entire culture? 

It’s not all Jews (heh, sounds like a hashtag), it’s British Jews. Why would you say probably lived all their lives about a political ideology either? Political ideology doesn’t affect residence.

And it’s not necessarily a smoking gun, just an example of antisemitic language (or potential antisemitic language if you like). Someone can use antisemitic language carelessly or defensively or in the course of trying to prove a point and it wouldn’t be a big problem if they apologised, cut it out, and didn’t try to hide behind a catch all excuse of Zionism ≠ Judaism.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 3/1/2020 at 9:05 PM, Rippounet said:

For people on the outside though, it can be easy to assume all Zionists support the worst Israeli policies on some level. And honestly the most vocal Zionists are often not exactly moderates (and I doubt those taking the time to berate a Palestinian ambassador are), so I personally get the conflation - regardless of whether it is malicious.

I’m confused, you understand that people conflate Judaism and Zionism, you understand why people conflate Judaism and Zionism, it’s okay to conflate these ideas, some combination of these three ideas, or I’m completely off my rocker and misunderstanding your statement?

[Alarich II]

On 3/2/2020 at 9:52 AM, Rorshach said:

Probably late, as I haven't followed the discussion too much, but I was reminded of this (very long) article on Corbyn and antisemittism. 

Worth reading, I think. Apologies if it has been linked before. 

Thanks for sharing this. This piece made me realize some of my own blindspots, so that was very valuable for me.

[Heartofice]

Yeah thanks for linking to that piece.

I also thought the Andrew Neil interview with Aaron Bastani in that link was kind of illuminating. There have been a lot of people on the left, your Owen Jones’ and Ash Sankars who are happy to minimise a lot of the antisemitism in the labour movement. But seeing Bastani, who on the whole is generally pretty extreme in a lot of what he says, even if he’s quite smart, basically admit there is a problem is kinda eye opening.

That he blames it on the sharp influx of labour members and the nature of the internet might have some merit too.

I think there is also a lot of cross over with general conspiracy theory that tends to occur on the hard left that intersects with anti Semitic thought. For instance there is definitely a thread of ‘Rothschilds control everything’ amongst some people, which might to them have nothing to do with Jews but to Jews is seen as anti Semitic. 
 

And this is part of the problem. Another example being that Comparing people to Nazis and Nazi Germany is part and parcel of attacks from hard left types, so maybe they wouldn’t think twice about saying it about Israel , not understanding how offensive it is to Jews. 
 

I still am not convinced that Corbyn himself is an anti Semite, it just seems to me that when you are so immersed in a world view based on protecting the biggest victim you can find, always siding with the under dog, you will just see things completely differently. I genuinely believe that he saw that mural and didn’t see anything anti Semitic in it, because for him maybe talk of Rothchilds and small cadres of powerful men and new world orders is just kinda normal and divorced from any racial undertones.

It just speaks to his and the lefts picture of the world.
 

[mormont]

11 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Why would you say “probably lived in England all their lives” about an entire culture? 

Why would you say it at all? 

The remark is about a supposed failure to culturally assimilate. There's no other interpretation that makes sense. And that's a pretty racist thing to deploy as a criticism, even if it's only about a subset of British Jews (that Corbyn disagrees with)

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wow.  And Corbyn was the leader of the Labour party...

I'd say there is not much evidence of anti-Semitism, historically, among British social democrats. Sixty years ago, a large majority of British Jews voted Labour.

But, I think a lot of the people who joined Labour under Corbyn were communists or Trotskyists, and anti-Semitism has always been rife among such groups.

[BigFatCoward]

1/5 workers off at any time in coronavirus peak (not expected until April/May).  We would be better off having a big corona virus party and just getting it out of the way.  I'm bored of it on the news already.  

Every single one of my staff have young children, if schools close i have no idea how we are going to police effectively. 

[ljkeane]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Every single one of my staff have young children, if schools close i have no idea how we are going to police effectively. 

I’d expect that if it gets to levels like 20% of the workforce having the virus they’ll have given up on quarantines and closing schools by that point.