UK Politics: What about a Masquerade?

[BigFatCoward]

8 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

There are a few of those around, it seems.

 

6th one is best. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

19 hours ago, Heartofice said:

They also responded to a number of claims that were found to be either incorrect or half truths. But none of that was mentioned in his article.

Which would be fine and dandy, if they sticked to correcting factual wrong information in that article. The outrage is over the bullshit they (tried to) pull(ed) with attacking the article for things it didn't state.

19 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Not just labour supporters, that downplays the level of commitment to a cause quite heavily, and suggests they were just mildly affiliated. 

Again, who cares whether they're Labour members, Tory members, or weed smoking dinosaurs from Mars? If they point out there's a huge lack of PPE and a severe mishandling of HMG, it doesn't change that one bit. So instead of addressing the issue, they set up a smoke screen, it's all Labour members in the NHS doing this, the deep state in the NHS if you will.

19 hours ago, Heartofice said:

No mention of the story itself or whether it was in fact in any way relevant. The language in that first sentence highlights how the writer feels about the story. That it was a story that was barely worth telling and was far less relevant than the Guardian would have you believe doesn't cross Lis' mind.

That's your opinion. Like I said, how an unelected official without an official goverment role gets into those non-public meetings is at least questionable. And no, the he is an adviser to the PM, so he wanted information doesn't really fly. That's why Hancock was supposedly there. Let's be real for a moment about what Cummings actual role is. He is Johnson's spin doctor.  So how did he get in there, and why are legit questions, even if that doesn't cross your mind.

19 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Again he claims Johnson is complacent. However Johnson has just been going by what the scientists have been telling him, him at the time. Its very easy to look back at these events with perfect hindsight and say he should have acted differently, but we now have different information. Its loaded language.

At least cover the bits in question a bit more extensively. I give the full paragraph in question not just the first two sentences

Quote

The third and most important strand is language itself. Johnson's words betrayed his complacency from the very start. His Greenwich speech in February, which came after the lockdown in Wuhan, derided the "panic...that [goes] beyond what is medically rational". A few weeks later he boasted about shaking hands with covid patients, and in a private meeting dubbed ventilator procurement "Operation Last Gasp". The virus was at best a throwaway joke and at worst a tedious distraction. For Johnson, governing is entertaining and this was not part of the bill.

So Lis goes on to back up his claim with some observable behaviour from the PM. You are free to disagree with his conclusion that Johnson was complacent, didn't take the situation serious enough.

 

 

[Raja]

4 hours ago, ljkeane said:

So it's pretty clear the numbers were fudged so the government could 'hit' it's target for 100,000 tests a day but I did think it was encouraging there was a clear upward trend but that's definitely not been the case in May. Now it turns out they had to send 50,000 tests to the US last week to be processed. Jesus Christ.

Jeez. I saw that the tests were not hitting the 'target' for the last week, but hadn't seen the flying to the US bit. As many have said before, all this is so self inflicted and a result of the spin that the govt have been indulging in.

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

 there's a huge lack of PPE and a severe mishandling of HMG, it doesn't change that one bit. So instead of addressing the issue, they set up a smoke screen, it's all Labour members in the NHS doing this, the deep state in the NHS if you will.

There have been multiple statements made by organizations such as NHS Providers, the British Medical Association, The Royal Colleges, Isis' link from the Institute of Biomedical Science ( IBS), surveys from the British Medical Association, and there are lots of others - all these groups have highlighted the lack of PPE/ testing & the discrepancy between what the govt is saying publicly and the situation on the ground.

As Soylent said, there is little point engaging when evidence like that is ignored.

[Which Tyler]

Who was it who said "never believe your own PR"?

[williamjm]

There was a lot to unpack in Boris' speech.

It was good that there was a lot of emphasis on this being far from the end of the road, and it wasn't as reckless as some of the newspaper headlines from last week might have suggested.

I think the general idea of the different levels seems reasonable and in line with what other countries are doing, although "Stay Alert" is a terrible slogan.

The "everyone can go outside as much as they want but must still avoid other people" bit feels like it would make enforcement even more challenging than it already is, and I'm concerned people might focus on the first part more than the second.

The "actively encourage everyone to go to work, unless they're in the many sectors that still can't safely do that" also seems a mixed message. It's also fine to say to avoid public transport but there are a lot of people for whom there won't be any alternative.

Also a notable lack of introspection on why exactly Britain had endured such a high death toll or why there had been such problems with PPE and in care homes, but I wasn't expecting anything different there.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Not sure if I'm overreacting, but Johnson just chucked blue collar workers under the bus he's recommending they don't take (while offering no alternative)

12 hours notice????? Wtf?!?

He's effectively told anyone in England who can't work from home (mostly blue collar workers) to go to work tomorrow. Are the businesses ready? Do they just turn up and hope their workplaces are open (since he gave no notice)? What about the supposed guidance workplaces are meant to be getting? Shouldn't they have had a week's notice to prepare? He didn't clarify those currently shielding - do they continue to shield?

Since schools and nurseries are still shut, what of those with kids and no childcare? With furloughing presumably binned, do they now face either unpaid leave, being sacked, or having to quit? 

What of those with no option but to take public transport - which will be a lot? Since we've been lockdown, trains and buses are on reduced timetables - I'm guessing there will be a lot of crowded trains, buses and subways tomorrow.

He clarified next to fuck all, giving companies an excuses to bin workers. After all, Boris told them to go back to work.

An absolute shambles. Workplaces re-opening should have been deferred a week to give everyone notice and time to prepare. The non-England parts of the UK seem to be saying 'fuck that'

[mormont]

1 hour ago, williamjm said:

It was good that there was a lot of emphasis on this being far from the end of the road, and it wasn't as reckless as some of the newspaper headlines from last week might have suggested.

It's still pretty reckless... if you don't have a nice comfy middle class job.

People who can't work from home are being 'encouraged' to return to work, and workplace safety guidance will be (but has not yet been) circulated to employers. So we see repeated the early disastrous lack of clarity (is this an instruction or a suggestion? Does it apply from tomorrow morning? Can my employer insist I return? Do they have to receive and implement the guidance first? What, in short, the fuck does this mean, in practice?) in favour of vague generalities. It's the closing-the-pubs fiasco all over again.

 

[Which Tyler]

13 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Workplaces re-opening should have been deferred 2-3 weeks to give everyone notice and time to prepare, and let the infection rate drop further.

Fixed That For You

 

 

Also, this: https://www.facebook.com/groups/754176931408428/permalink/1559740760852037/

[Sophelia]

@Derfel Cadarn and @mormont I feel the same way.  This makes me very angry and upset.  (I'm in a comfortable middle class job myself but I am worried sick about all those who are not, the ambiguity and confusion of this, that people stand to lose their jobs or risk their lives, and that it is too early to be relaxing the lockdown because our death-rate is still appalling) 

[Werthead]

Is there a level above omnishambles? I feel that's where we are at right now.

[dog-days]

Mark Drakeford and the Senedd are being more sensible - just hope they can get the message across loud enough to drown out Bo-Jo.  A lot of the UK papers will doubtless be running England-centric headlines, and that's going to really confuse things. 

Hope that the responsible people in the police force on this side of the border will also be briefing the patrols clearly. It won't matter too much round my area, but down in the valleys, Newport, Cardiff, Swansea etc. this could be a real headache. 

 

[mormont]

It's OK folks. It's only a 'sketch of a plan', after all. I mean, the Prime Minister of Great Britain went on prime time TV to announce to the nation some ideas he's been kicking around with the Cabinet. Might cost you your life, but hey, what do you want? Details?

[HexMachina]

9 minutes ago, Sophelia said:

@Derfel Cadarn and @mormont I feel the same way.  This makes me very angry and upset.  (I'm in a comfortable middle class job myself but I am worried sick about all those who are not, the ambiguity and confusion of this, that people stand to lose their jobs or risk their lives, and that it is too early to be relaxing the lockdown because our death-rate is still appalling) 

Same position here. Been very fortunate with my employer who have been open with this throughout and kept us all informed. We were told by email on Thursday that irrespective of what happened today we would not be back to the office next week, and that when we did return it would be phased and take into account personal circumstances. I think being a global firm with offices in some badly affected Asian and European countries has helped them prepare a strategy much more effectively than the UK government. But I know others are not so lucky - my mam is currently at a loss what to do tomorrow. The whole pamdemic has stressed her and made her almost scared to go out so if work tell her to return i’m not convinced she will, and that will lose her position as a result. And i know that uncertainty and fear will be repeated across the country.

Such a farce. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

The Scottish and Welsh governments seem to be telling Johnson to ram it. Scotland at least is continuing the lockdown.

 

[dog-days]

6 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The Scottish and Welsh governments seem to be telling Johnson to ram it. Scotland at least is continuing the lockdown.

 

And I think Scotland can do it - it's got more of its own media than Wales, and a rather less blurry sense of national identity. I'm not sure what BJ thinks he's up to regarding the devolved nations, if he thinks at all - Drakeford and Sturgeon have been giving mixed messages on that front, saying that he's cooperating, but not saying that he's cooperating well or reliably. 

ETA; Sturgeon said she first saw the new Stay Alert slogan in the Sunday papers.

[mormont]

6 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The Scottish and Welsh governments seem to be telling Johnson to ram it. Scotland at least is continuing the lockdown.

Yeah, which is fine because health is a devolved issue...

... but the furlough scheme isn't. So if the PM has announced that you better get back to work, the Scottish and Welsh governments can't necessarily save you.

[Sophelia]

2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

The whole pamdemic has stressed her and made her almost scared to go out so if work tell her to return i’m not convinced she will, and that will lose her position as a result. And i know that uncertainty and fear will be repeated across the country.

Such a farce. 

The thing is, the risk to any individual isn't that high (though higher than any of us are used to dealing with who don't have certain medical conditions), but we're all interconnected and the risk to any one of us radiates exponentially out to the rest of the population and to those who are (mostly unpredictably) vulnerable.

This is where we need strong unions, but most people don't have that (ironically my middle class job has a strong union but the unions for those in the working class with the same employer are separate and not so strong - I'm not sure if that is the same countrywide - obviously a lot of precarious jobs have no unions at all or people don't dare join them).

[Fragile Bird]

12 hours? The government suggested going back to work in 12 hours? WT flying F?

[DaveSumm]

If you’re currently off work, then it’s cos you’ve agreed with your employer that you’re off work. So the bit that sticks out to me is, why isn’t Boris directly addressing employers and not employees? If my boss calls me and tells me to work, I’ll go to work. But there’s certainly no mention of ending the furlough scheme, so at home I shall stay.

It’s basically “loads of people are taking the piss with this furlough thing and we’re skint, can you all just go to work” but they didn’t know how to phrase it tactfully.

I could see this culminating in them ending the furlough scheme for certain industries, but as Mormont said it’s the same strategy as the pub closing thing: announce it vaguely, watch everyone scramble about and gauge what kind of response this will need, then come up with more details a week later.

[mormont]

11 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

If you’re currently off work, then it’s cos you’ve agreed with your employer that you’re off work. So the bit that sticks out to me is, why isn’t Boris directly addressing employers and not employees?

Because for various reasons - political, philosophical and personal - Johnson genuinely prefers and likes to talk in vague generalities. He wants to do laissez-faire government in the middle of an ongoing national emergency. It hasn't penetrated his skull, even now, that this is catastrophically stupid and will actually cost lives.

The London Chamber of Commerce have now joined the TUC in advising employers not to ask their employees to work until the government actually publish some guidance on how that may be done safely. Employers aren't any keener on this waffling approach than employees are.