WandaVision 3: Here Be Magic (Spoilers)

[A True Kaniggit]

38 minutes ago, mormont said:

There's certainly no doubt that Vision was more unambiguously good, heroic and selfless than Wanda in this series - but then again, to a great extent if not wholly Vision appears to have been a creation of Wanda's mind, so what does that tell us about Wanda? Is there an argument that Vision was, all along, Wanda's subconscious conscience manifesting itself?

As you said. She created him from her mind. It could just be she created hIm better than he was in real life, based on how she envisioned him. 

She was in love with him after all. 

[Caligula_K3]

It wasn't the best of finales, it wasn't the worst of finales. I liked the quieter moments - Vision vs. Vision (even if that story ended very abruptly), everything between Wanda and Vision, and the great scene where the townspeople get to confront Wanda. I respect the show for allowing its superhero character to do something truly terrible - and for others to acknowledge it. It makes Wanda a much more interesting character. The goodbye scenes between Wanda, Vision, and the kids were moving, and overall I count the show as a success for making me care about two characters that never did anything for me in the movies and for experimenting with the Marvel formula a lot more than usual.

On the other hand, a lot of the finale devolved into typical MCU action scene: pow pow zap zap bad guys down. Agatha was a disappointment as a villain. Everything involving Sword all season long has been really dumb and also so boring that I felt even the actors could barely stay awake. I was also disappointed that the moral reckoning at the end got handwaved away; the townspeople stare angrily at Wanda as if she had just accidentally run over someone's dog rather than enslaved and tortured them for a month. And then Monica gets that stupid line: "they'll never know what you gave up for them." Umm, I'm pretty sure they know. They were forced to live out Wanda's fantasy for the last month, apparently in a state of torment. I think the Avengers might want to get on this.

I've looked through some of this thread and I see people upset about a lot of red herrings in the show. I don't honestly think there were many; people read a lot into characters like Dottie who were just playing your typical sitcom role, mixed in with some weirdness and existential horror. But I do think the Quicksilver resolution was incredibly weak. That cliffhanger only works because viewers recognize the actor and his significance - to throw that away leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's also the second time that the MCU has teased a multiverse story recently and then backed away - Mysterio in Spiderman Far From Home comes to mind. If you want to do this story, just do it.

So, the show went out with a little bit of a whimper - it was at its best in the middle of the season. But I'm still very glad I watched this, and I hope that the success of the show encourages the MCU to allow for more experimentation. Now to cancel my Disney+ so some data analyst can see that there are perhaps dozens of us (dozens!) out there that want more like Wandavision and less like Captain and the Winter Soldier.

[Heartofice]

I agree with all of the above.. but I’m hopeful that Falcon and the Winter Soldier will be great. On paper it would be the one I was most looking forward to, though the trailer didn’t hit me. If it ever captured the magic of the Winter Soldier movie I’d  be happy but I’m not hopeful 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

https://tvline.com/2021/02/24/wandavision-season-2-renewed-cancelled-disney-plus/

So it seems like they have no plans to do a second season but it's possible Wanda could end up back on a Disney+ show down the line. 

It's interesting that none of the shows they're working on seemed to be designed to continue on until they become unprofitable.

I like that they are focusing on story as opposed to longevity.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

And then Monica gets that stupid line: "they'll never know what you gave up for them." Umm, I'm pretty sure they know. They were forced to live out Wanda's fantasy for the last month, apparently in a state of torment.

This is a doubly stupid line actually, firstly because as everyone said, it’s dumb to imply that makes it OK when she’s tortured them for so long. And secondly, because, they’re standing right there! Go and tell them if you want Monica! I mean won’t there be some kind of debriefing for them, counselling? Somebody to explain what happened and what’s going to happen? 

Is there an arrest warrant for Wanda after all this? In fact, I can’t even remember what the status of the Avengers is after Civil War, I wonder if the Sokovia Accords survived the snap? Or does no one really care after something that horrific? Is there some governing body in charge of this? Is it SWORD? Or are they just there for a Vision? As much as I loved Winter Soldier, it’s a bit of a shame we don’t have SHIELD anymore as a catch-all answer to this.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

In fact, I can’t even remember what the status of the Avengers is after Civil War, I wonder if the Sokovia Accords survived the snap?

Well, Ross clearly was still relying on the Sokovia Accords at the beginning of Infinity War as he orders Rhodes to arrest Cap/Wanda et al. and somehow immediately sends Rhodes a court martial (...as Secretary of State, cuz that makes sense) for disobeying.  But yeah, in Endgame, Cap, Nat, and Rhodes all seem to be doing just fine and even essentially resumed their pre-Accords roles (at least the latter two).  Plus Barton is apparently just off killing major gangs/cartels across the world. 

[Kalbear]

I guess I don't see Wanda right now as morally grey whatsoever. She's a villain. She happened to fight against another villain who wanted her power, and instead Wanda took Agathas power herself. 

She has a good origin story for her villainy, but a sympathetic backstory is not a shade of grey. 

Put it another way - what good did she do in this story? How was she ever heroic? She sacrificed her happiness, but only after she tortured people for a month; returning a car you stole after you stole it and did a bunch of drugs in it is not a particularly heroic act, especially if you didn't do anything to make amends or provide restitution. 

 

[RumHam]

It would be great if Falcon and The Winter Soldier slowed things down a bit to catch us up on the state of the MCU world post-blip. I have so many questions.

I assume the accords are still in effect because Jimmy mentions how Wanda stealing Visions body would violate them. I assume Natasha et al. were authorized to act during the five year gap and Barton was not and was just a criminal. I'm sure the UN had bigger problems to worry about after the snap. 

What's more confusing to me is the status of Spider-Man. He fought on the pro-registration side in Civil War, but then kept his identity secret and acted without UN authorization in his two movies. Tony was gonna bring him in as an Avenger but then he said no. 

WandaVision never really bothered to explain what SWORD was very well. Like what was Monica getting up to in space before she was snapped and thus grounded? I also still wanna know if Aliens (other than Thor) just come hang out on earth now or what. 

Did SWORD just learn about witches and wizards in this last episode? They seemed to know a lot about the battle against Thanos but it's not clear if Dr. Strange and his people are still operating in secret. I would have thought they'd detain and debrief Agatha but oddly Wanda seems to think she'll be able to find her back in Westview if she needs her. 

 

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I assume Natasha et al. were authorized to act during the five year gap and Barton was not and was just a criminal. I'm sure the UN had bigger problems to worry about after the snap. 

Yeah that's the most expeditious explanation.

On Wanda as a "villain," different strokes for different folks I guess.  I will say one reason this is more controversial than it could have been is the show in general's failure to confront her redemption and remorse in the finale, instead opting for the standard cgi fights in the sky.  Not surprising, but I definitely think we're "supposed" to view Wanda as redeemed (albeit still distinctly "grey" rather than "good") even though she didn't actually earn it.  Which is why, as mentioned frequently, Monica's line comes off as so incredibly stupid.

And in terms of comparisons to other Avengers, I think the obvious one is the Hulk.  Obviously, Banner can't control it, but consider all the damage he's done in-universe.  Hell, how many "prisoner with jobs" - or Dougs - did he outright kill on Sakaar before Thor showed up?  This comparison can be advanced to, obviously, Banner has always tried to control/keep Hulk in line.  One could argue Wanda taking the Darkhold is her way of trying to learn about, and subsequently control, this awesome "Scarlet Witch" power she possesses.  Probably woulda been a better idea to simply seek out Strange, but still.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, the hulk is a good comparison to show that wanda is likely a villain. 

The hulk went away from everyone and everything multiple times to avoid his going out of control. He finally came back and proceeded to show everyone that he was 100% right to go away. And when he got the chance to redeem himself that way he did so yet again, at actual great personal cost and after he actually did fight for good. 

He only came back after he learned to control himself and not be a danger to others. 

Wanda has done absolutely none of this. She has not taken any particular responsibility. She has so far not fought for good at all - at best she fought for revenge against thanos and then proceeded to torture people and kidnap children. When her actual culpability was found she did nothing to help, noped out of there and then as far as we can tell decided to become more evil in order to save children that were never hers. 

Like, right now how is her backstop different from spiderverses kingpin? Same basic idea, same lawbreaking and harm done and ends justifying anything, same lack of remorse. Only thing she hasn't done yet is kill a hero, though that doesn't appear for lack of trying. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

Wanda has done absolutely none of this.

Um..looked like Wanda went pretty far "away" in the post-credits scene.  Hell, at the beginning of Incredible Hulk and Avengers, Banner is in really highly populated cities instead of actually in isolation.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

Wunagore mountain. It's a thing in the comics. 

I don't know what that is but I suspect it's supposed to significantly more isolated than Rio de Janeiro or Kolkata.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

What's more confusing to me is the status of Spider-Man. He fought on the pro-registration side in Civil War, but then kept his identity secret and acted without UN authorization in his two movies. Tony was gonna bring him in as an Avenger but then he said no. 

You’re mixing a little of comic Civil War in there, remember in the MCU Civil War, the Accords were only ever about the Avengers specifically being under UN control. No mention of registration, no mention of anyone other than the Avengers. I guess at the time the ‘Avengers’ name was a good catch-all for who they wanted to get under control, so they didn’t bother to think about who defines that group or what happens if they split up.

Spider-Man wasn’t breaking any rules because you’re allowed to have a secret identity, and he wasn’t an Avenger. Even if he were, a lot of the movie makes out that it’s the ‘crossing borders willy nilly’ part that they focused on, so I’m not sure they’d have been too fussed with a neighbourhood Spider-Man. It’s hard to see how being Avenger would function at all if you had to check with the UN about literally everything you did.

To be fair, Agents of SHIELD did mention registration, but I maintain that’s because they got fuck all heads up on what actually happened in the film so they were left to assume it’d play out like the comic.

[john]

Even Vision, the purest of all the Avengers, crippled Rhodey. They all fuck up unintentionally. Wanda just did it bigger.

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

So, the show went out with a little bit of a whimper - it was at its best in the middle of the season. But I'm still very glad I watched this, and I hope that the success of the show encourages the MCU to allow for more experimentation. Now to cancel my Disney+ so some data analyst can see that there are perhaps dozens of us (dozens!) out there that want more like Wandavision and less like Captain and the Winter Soldier.

I don't think it went out too badly.  I was suprised at how the finale worked emotionally, when Wanda realized she was going to have to say goodbye to her husband and children when her world disappeared.  

I was a little disappointed that they didn't take advantage of this show to set up a new big Marvel Villain, or to set up the multi-verse and give us an actual cross over hero or villain from one of the other franchises.  Personally I thought that would have been cool.  But I'll give the series credit.  They took the two characters I was least interested in from the Avengers and ended up making them the two characters I'm now the most invested in.  That's a pretty neat trick.

As for my personal theories, while they were all pretty much a swing and a miss, I'm still holding out hope that my last theory is correct.  While the finale didn't confirm it, it didn't debunk it either.  In fact, it appears that the mystery of Wanda's enhanced power is still a mystery left to be resolved later.

So I still think my theory that Wanda absorbed the powers of all the infinity stones during her last battle with Thanos is correct.  She even mentioned to Vision that she created him out of a piece of the mind stone that resided in her.  Which makes me think if she can aquire the power of one of the stones, it's also possible that she absorbed the power of all of the stones.

I went back and looked at the scene in Infinity War where Wanda would have come in contact with the Infinity Stones, and I found the scene where it could have happened.  Wanda connects with the Vision's mind stone with her powers in an attempt to destroy it before Thanos can aquire it.  As Thanos approaches Wanda then tries to hold him off with her powers simultaneously.  Thanos uses the Infinity Guantlet to block her power.  So for several seconds Wanda becomes a conduit with her powers reaching out and connecting with all six stones at once.  I think that's where Wanda would have aquired the powers of all the infinity stones.  And I don't think she ever realized it happened. 

Interestingly enough, this is also a moment that technically never happened because Thanos used the time stone to make that scene disappear.  But Wanda remembers it, because she remembers the Vision dying twice.  Which means at least for Wanda that scene certainly happened.

It was her grief in Westview which caused her newly aquired powers to emerge.  And as Westview changed, it created a billboard which reads "Cleanup in a snap".  Which I think is a wink and a nod to Thanos' use of the infinity guantlet.

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think it went out too badly.  I was suprised at how the finale worked emotionally, when Wanda realized she was going to have to say goodbye to her husband and children when her world disappeared.  

I was a little disappointed that they didn't take advantage of this show to set up a new big Marvel Villain, or to set up the multi-verse and give us an actual cross over hero or villain from one of the other franchises.  Personally I thought that would have been cool.  But I'll give the series credit.  They took the two characters I was least interested in from the Avengers and ended up making them the two characters I'm now the most invested in.  That's a pretty neat trick.

As for my personal theories, while they were all pretty much a swing and a miss, I'm still holding out hope that my last theory is correct.  While the finale didn't confirm it, it didn't debunk it either.  In fact, it appears that the mystery of Wanda's enhanced power is still a mystery left to be resolved later.

So I still think my theory that Wanda absorbed the powers of all the infinity stones during her last battle with Thanos is correct.  She even mentioned to Vision that she created him out of a piece of the mind stone that resided in her.  Which makes me think if she can aquire the power of one of the stones, it's also possible that she absorbed the power of all of the stones.

I went back and looked at the scene in Infinity War where Wanda would have come in contact with the Infinity Stones, and I found the scene where it could have happened.  Wanda connects with the Vision's mind stone with her powers in an attempt to destroy it before Thanos can aquire it.  As Thanos approaches Wanda then tries to hold him off with her powers simultaneously.  Thanos uses the Infinity Guantlet to block her power.  So for several seconds Wanda becomes a conduit with her powers reaching out and connecting with all six stones at once.  I think that's where Wanda would have aquired the powers of all the infinity stones.  And I don't think she ever realized it happened. 

Interestingly enough, this is also a moment that technically never happened because Thanos used the time stone to make that scene disappear.  But Wanda remembers it, because she remembers the Vision dying twice.  Which means at least for Wanda that scene certainly happened.

It was her grief in Westview which caused her newly aquired powers to emerge.  And as Westview changed, it created a billboard which reads "Cleanup in a snap".  Which I think is a wink and a nod to Thanos' use of the infinity guantlet.

I don't dispute your theory but I am skeptical at this point, given that the show was more self-contained than most theories assumed. To enforce your theory, another clue is in Agatha's line: "The Scarlet Witch isn't born, she is forged." Kinda like an item to hold power, perhaps?  

Did she use the power of the space stone to vanish in mid air, or did she just copy Agatha? Visual evidence suggests the latter. I feel that it could go either way, depending on where the next writers decide to take the character - if she becomes more of a cosmic being, she has the power of all the stones; if she is all magic, then just like they introduced that she had magic from childhood, they can say that the Mind Stone didn't play that much of a role other than unlocking what was already there, and she didn't absorb anything from the other stones.

[Frey family reunion]

36 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't dispute your theory but I am skeptical at this point, given that the show was more self-contained than most theories assumed. To enforce your theory, another clue is in Agatha's line: "The Scarlet Witch isn't born, she is forged." Kinda like an item to hold power, perhaps?  

Did she use the power of the space stone to vanish in mid air, or did she just copy Agatha? Visual evidence suggests the latter. I feel that it could go either way, depending on where the next writers decide to take the character - if she becomes more of a cosmic being, she has the power of all the stones; if she is all magic, then just like they introduced that she had magic from childhood, they can say that the Mind Stone didn't play that much of a role other than unlocking what was already there, and she didn't absorb anything from the other stones.

There seems to be a fine line in the Marvel U between cosmic powers and magical powers.  After all, Dr. Strange was in possession of the Time Stone in his "magical" amulet.  

The one power that Wanda seemingly was born with, was the same power that she originally had in the comics.  She could cast probability hex's which could alter probability in her favor.  In the comics she wasn't telpathic or had telekenisis, which were the powers she had when we first met her in the movies.  An explanation is that these powers only came after Wanda came in contact with the mind stone in the Hyra Base.  For some reason (perhaps due to her own innate powers over probability) she was able to absorb the mind stone's powers.

So now fast forward to Westview.  Her powers have made this huge leap where she is able to recreate matter, mass hypnosis, and can generate an impenetrable force field.  She also can seemingly rewind time to erase events that displease her.  

If you go back to when Thanos aquires the reality stone in Infinity War, the Guardians get to Nowhere where everything seems to be pretty much intact.  It's not until Thanos reveals that he already possesses the reality stone that we realize that everything we're looking at is an illusion created by the reality stone, which parallels fairly nicely with the illusion of Westview.  In addition when Wanda's power erupts from her, it looks like the red ether from that the reality stone was made from.  

ETA: regarding her disappearing trick, it could be the space stone or it could be an illusion from the mind stone.  Either way.  And regarding Agatha, I do find it a bit interesting that her purple powers seem to line up a bit with the purple power stone.  A power which can seemingly absorb other individuals life forces.

[Frey family reunion]

One last observation about Wandavision and the Infinity Stones.  While I didn’t pick up on this, other people did.  One could argue that the first four commercials in Wandavision subtly referenced four of the infinity stones.  

The first one being the mind stone, which was portrayed as the blinking red dot on the toaster.  The toaster kind of looked like a face with the red dot in the forehead.  Which corresponds to where the mind stone resided in the Vision.

The second commercial showed a watch, which was a symbol highlighted in Dr. Strange’s movie which featured the time stone.

The third commercial featured the soap which was contained in a blue box.  This might reference the space stone which was located in the blue tesseract.   While I have to go back and look at the commercial, I thought the woman in the commercial blew the bubbles from her hand.  If so then that also happened when Thanos first acquired the space stone.  He crushed the tesseract then blew the glass shards from his hand.

Finally the fourth commercial might have referenced the reality stone.  The red liquid being cleaned up looking a lot like the red ether the reality stone was made from.  

So then we get the next commercial where a big headed apex predator gives something entitled yo magic to the person stranded on the desert island.  While it’s an obvious connection to Agatha and Fakesilver I think there may be a more subtle reference.  That “yo”magic is Wanda’s magic which was “given” to her by another big headed apex predator, Thanos.  Only Wanda didn’t know how to open it.  

Finally the last commercial was the Nexus one.  Where Wanda finally opens her magic to create this alternate reality.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In addition when Wanda's power erupts from her, it looks like the red ether from that the reality stone was made from.  

Yeah I've always found it interesting that Wanda's power is the same shade of red as the aether.  But, the key word there is "always" - that's been the case since before she interacted with anything but the mind stone.  

I do like your theory though.  Her ability to simultaneously fend off Thanos + 5 stones AND destroy the mind stone is quite the feat.  One could even posit she channeled the stones from Thanos in order to destroy the mind stone - making this an error on Thanos' part.  Her absorbing the stones' power here also helps explain why she was able to defeat a stoneless Thanos in Endgame - rather easily.

However, like Corvinus I doubt this theory will be covered in-universe.  Seems like a whole lot of explanation for little purpose.  As the stones are destroyed, don't really see how this revelation substantively impacts future stories.  And, hopefully, they move on from the stones for the foreseeable future (instead of going back in time to get them..again, or something).

[SpaceChampion]

One thing I expected in the finale while watching it was the two Visions to merge.  They talk about one has the original Vision's mind, and the other had his body and memories.  Since they can phase through each other, seemed a simple leap to think they'd just resolve the difference by phasing and fusing with each other.