DCEU: Enter the Snyderverse

[Toth]

36 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Honestly for me I'd have no problem if they hire a black superman and then do nothing with it. No problem if they do either, but asking for them to do something with it implies that only reason to have a black main character is to tell a story about being black. Like yes inevitably making Superman black will be a commentary on being black, cause whenever you put superman in any situation it become commentary on that situation. But the idea that by making the character black you must then centre the story around his blackness feels a little... eh.

ETA: Of course I do expect that such a movie will look into the issue in depth anyway. It would only make sense given Superman is a story written by Jewish people about the immigrant experience. Which actually means that while some of the implications would be different, a lot of stuff can stay the same pretty easily.

I must sound like a broken record, but my go-to reference is always the Mexican Superman in Gods and Monsters here. Him being Mexican wasn't at all the center of his movie, it was about someone murdering scientists using robots mimicking the powers of his world's Justice League to pin their crimes on them. But it was still abundantly clear in every single scene that Hernan is not Clark and never was. He was written as significantly more cynical and unscrupulous, not to mention constantly questioning his purpose and the one of his heroics. All because his different backstory mattered. I would hope for a black Superman to be handled the same.

I'd say making Superman black solely as a cynical marketing scheme and not do anything with it would be the height of laziness. I would very much prefer someone to do something creative with that premise rather than check stale old Superman tropes. But then again, it's Hollywood, I utterly doubt that there is any kernel of creativity to find there.

[RumHam]

Quote

Sloane Offer Weber & Dern
Southwestern Law School

Client Zack Snyder is back in action with his Justice League cut on HBO Max and the Netflix zombie flick Army of the Dead. Todd Phillips struck a deal to co-write the next Joker installment

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/hollywood-most-powerful-lawyers-2021/warren-dern-9/

So they're doing Joker 2 apparently. 

[Corvinus85]

Anyone watching the CW's Superman & Lois? I ask because I'm fairly certain DCEU was recognized the CW Arrowverse, what with the whole multiverse thing.

For a CW show, it's been better that I expected. There an amazingly well done twist in the latest episode, as they introduced another pretty well known character.

Spoiler

John Henry Irons, aka Steel.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

58 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Anyone watching the CW's Superman & Lois? I ask because I'm fairly certain DCEU was recognized the CW Arrowverse, what with the whole multiverse thing.

For a CW show, it's been better that I expected. There an amazingly well done twist in the latest episode, as they introduced another pretty well known character.

  Hide contents

John Henry Irons, aka Steel.

 

Wasnt that character already in Legenda of Tomorrow (different real name I think)

[Corvinus85]

21 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Wasnt that character already in Legenda of Tomorrow (different real name I think)

I've not watched Legends since the ending with Beebo vs. the demon.

[DaveSumm]

I found this quite interesting, how Snyder’s appreciation for Ayn Rand informs his DC movies:

The ‘DC vs Marvel’ presentation of it is a bit misleading, it’s really about Snyder primarily. Not sure how convinced I am, but seeing it through the lens of all of them acting selfishly actually makes way more sense than it should for a superhero film.

[Heartofice]

I don’t buy anything in that video to be honest, feels like it’s trying to connect dots that have little connection. I think Snyder rarely thinks as deeply as is being suggested and really tends to concentrate on the visuals. If anything I think his influences are pretty much other comic books rather than trying to consider his religious upbringing 

[DaveSumm]

54 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I don’t buy anything in that video to be honest, feels like it’s trying to connect dots that have little connection. I think Snyder rarely thinks as deeply as is being suggested and really tends to concentrate on the visuals. If anything I think his influences are pretty much other comic books rather than trying to consider his religious upbringing 

I don’t buy all of it, but it was interesting how many clips he managed to pull of Snyder’s protagonists doing things for their own interests and not the greater good. Maybe the reasoning isn’t all there but the end product is certainly a skewed one from the comic counterparts.

[TrueMetis]

IIRC Snyder mentioned never having been into comics all that much, until he got to things like Watchmen. And there is a sense that he didn't really get what Alan Moore was going for in those comics, at least based on how he directed the Watchmen movie.

[DMC]

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I found this quite interesting, how Snyder’s appreciation for Ayn Rand informs his DC movies

"Ayn Rand's stupid and horrible writing inspires Zack Snyder to make stupid and horrible movies."  Seems plausible on its face.

[Jaxom 1974]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:32 AM, Corvinus85 said:

Anyone watching the CW's Superman & Lois? I ask because I'm fairly certain DCEU was recognized the CW Arrowverse, what with the whole multiverse thing.

For a CW show, it's been better that I expected. There an amazingly well done twist in the latest episode, as they introduced another pretty well known character.

  Hide contents

John Henry Irons, aka Steel.

 

Not sure what you're asking.  Is the Arrowverse acknowledged by the wider DCEU? Or is the DCEU acknowledged as part of the multiverse presented on the CW shows?  Because the Ezra Miller cameo in the Arrowverse Crisis kinda confirms that the DCEU is taking at least some cues from the Arrowverse.  I thought that cameonwas supposed to be reflected in whatever Flash movie it is that they're trying to make. 

And Superman and Lois is a superior show.  Some of the best ever representations of the characters.  I'm interested to see how they play with the other shows in the end, though the first season will likely keep the crossovers to just the Diggle appearance...

[Corvinus85]

18 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Not sure what you're asking.  Is the Arrowverse acknowledged by the wider DCEU? Or is the DCEU acknowledged as part of the multiverse presented on the CW shows?  Because the Ezra Miller cameo in the Arrowverse Crisis kinda confirms that the DCEU is taking at least some cues from the Arrowverse.  I thought that cameonwas supposed to be reflected in whatever Flash movie it is that they're trying to make. 

And Superman and Lois is a superior show.  Some of the best ever representations of the characters.  I'm interested to see how they play with the other shows in the end, though the first season will likely keep the crossovers to just the Diggle appearance...

Shit, I meant to say I was asking in this thread because the DCEU recognized the Arrowverse. 

[RumHam]

I'm waiting for The Suicide Squad to show up on HBO Max, but are DC still trying to link these films? Like is the idea that Quinn got out, had her fabulous emancipation and then ended up back in Belle Reeve? And that a giant starfish alien attacks a city and super-man is alive again but busy? 

[Macklunkey]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm waiting for The Suicide Squad to show up on HBO Max, but are DC still trying to link these films? Like is the idea that Quinn got out, had her fabulous emancipation and then ended up back in Belle Reeve? And that a giant starfish alien attacks a city and super-man is alive again but busy? 

They explain in the movie about why Superman might not be available at this time.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

On 5/31/2021 at 11:44 AM, DaveSumm said:

I found this quite interesting, how Snyder’s appreciation for Ayn Rand informs his DC movies:

The ‘DC vs Marvel’ presentation of it is a bit misleading, it’s really about Snyder primarily. Not sure how convinced I am, but seeing it through the lens of all of them acting selfishly actually makes way more sense than it should for a superhero film.

Yeah, sorry. This is powerfully stupid stuff.

While I disagree with the article, "The Dawn of “Just Me”: Zack Snyder’s Neoliberal Superheroes", in it, Bradley is honest enough to cite counter examples in those films that he can't fit into his thesis. Screencrush never mentions this and, curiously, doesn't bother to provide a link to the article. 

I could go through it point-by-point, but I'll focus on the death of Superman portion starting at ~14:08

"So his last action is not really self-sacrifice, especially because there is no reason for him to have known that he was going to die when he rushed Doomsday." And SC adds, "...like he did in the comics back in '92." (emphasis mine)

First, the events of Man Of Steel demonstrated that, even on earth, Kryptonians are *totally* kill-able. Second, after 20 minutes of getting his ass kicked, he'd know that Doomsday is considerably more powerful than he is. Third, he's charging at Doomsday with a weapon that's literally making him weaker just by being close to it.

He clearly had several reasons to believe he wasn't getting out of that situation alive. Lois sure as hell did when she cried out to Superman as he took off. In the end, in a nod to the climax of Jon Boorman's Excalibur, Superman embraces death in order to defeat Doomsday. 

Regarding the Death of Superman comic, Superman does not fight Doomsday knowing it would be his end. Only that he was willing to take that chance to save the city. He wasn't going on a suicide mission.  He (consciously) fights Doomsday to the death and then succumbs to his injuries.

And, for those people who lost their shit at Zod's demise in MoS, The Death of Superman comic plainly illustrates that when faced with an existential threat; as a last resort; Superman is willing to use lethal force to end that threat. So the red-trunk fetishists can just deal with it. 

-

You want an example of a superhero tribute to Objectivism and the teachings of Ayn Rand? The Iron Man trilogy. I'm talking about the three films that were made back when Mar-A-Lago club member Perlmutter and the creative board had the final say, not the post CA:CW films made under the control of Fiege.

Who is Tony Stark? He's a young, handsome, singularly-brilliant American industrialist. He is independent, confident, and supremely arrogant. He doesn't have a spiritual or religious bone in his body. He has no hangups about casual sexual relationships or ostentatious displays of wealth. He has the kick-ass man cave under the mansion on stilts in Malibu and drives a brand new Audi every day. In contrast to this, Batfleck leaves Wayne Manor to rot while he lives in an austere, minimalist home and drives his dad's old Aston Martin.  Which one is closer to a Rand-ian heroic archetype?

Superpowers? His technology, his industrial might, and the stuff between his ears.  Who are his antagonists? Aside from variations of the, "guy in a suit and a mercenary" trope that's recycled in all three films, they're all basically lesser versions of Tony.

Obadiah Stane isn't as young, handsome, or brilliant. He can't build his own company or tech, so he steals both from the better man. Justin Hammer is just a cheap imitation (he can't get his tech to work either). Vanko could have been "Tony Stark", except he grew up in a Soviet shit hole and not the "land of the free". And, instead of pursuing his "enlightened, rational self interest", he wallows in self pity and is consumed by revenge. Same could be said for "Syndrome".

But wait. There's a secondary villain in Iron Man 2: The US government. Governments around the world are all trying to replicate the Iron Man technology but can't do it. After all, they aren't young, handsome or brilliant. Ah, but Tony is an American citizen! So the Feds try to expropriate his technology under the guise of national security <cough> property rights <cough>. Tony handles them easily.

Then what does Tony do? After humiliating the chair of the congressional committee, he spins around, flashes a gang sign, and proclaims to the audience, "I've successfully privatized world peace!" This is met with thunderous applause from the gallery. Neoliberalism, indeed. If you happened to see that film an a DC theater, that strange noise you heard was Heritage Foundation and Ayn Rand institute types cumming on the seat backs of people in front of them.

When they do finally get his tech, War Machine becomes a more complicated, less effective version of Iron Man. Pft. "Governments". And at the end of the 3rd film, Tony destroys his suits so he can be with Pepper. He chooses his own happiness over being Iron Man. 

Clearly I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here. I'm not saying the creatives behind those films set out to make a particular political statement. I'm saying you really don't have to distort those stories or those characters at all to get them to fit into that framework.

[DMC]

Heh, I suppose it makes sense that Iron Man is Randian.  After all, Tony Stark is based on Howard Hughes, who himself seems to be the inspiration for the "heroes" in Rand's drivel.  Of course, Batman/Bruce Wayne is just as much.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

That probably depends on which one. There have been several interpretations. Clooney's probably comes closest to the Bat Man Rand would love.

[SpaceChampion]

I'm not sure whether to drop this here or the Canadian politics thread in General

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Golly. How wonderful. Ya think we could get our vaccination rates up for people under 40 before the hospitals are jammed again?

Edmontonians are idiots. 

[Slurktan]

8 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Golly. How wonderful. Ya think we could get our vaccination rates up for people under 40 before the hospitals are jammed again?

Edmontonians are idiots. 

WTF? It's naming a building. Get over yourself.