Star Warsing Across the Universe

[Ran]

I've seen that one before. So cute!

 

16 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Oh hey I'm sure Star Wars is just like all the other fandoms and is totally fine with a black woman

It's the most watched premiere in Disney+'s history, which has already set records for big premieres, so how bad is "the fandom" really? With the actress announced long ago and the trailers all featuring her prominently?

And does a message from Disney+ actually mean that there's a particularly unusual amount of racist hatred directed towards the actor, or simply an unacceptable (aka non-zero) amount? Without more information, it's impossible to say that "Star Wars fandom" is particularly rife with racism compared to any other comparable franchise fandom.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've seen that one before. So cute!

 

It's the most watched premiere in Disney+'s history, which has already set records for big premieres, so how bad is "the fandom" really? With the actress announced long ago and the trailers all featuring her prominently?

And does a message from Disney+ actually mean that there's a particularly unusual amount of racist hatred directed towards the actor, or simply an unacceptable (aka non-zero) amount? Without more information, it's impossible to say that "Star Wars fandom" is particularly rife with racism compared to any other comparable franchise fandom.

 

There is a particular focus on SW from an online community that likes to make a culture war issue out of everything. But yeah, this is largely correct. 

[Corvinus85]

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've seen that one before. So cute!

 

It's the most watched premiere in Disney+'s history, which has already set records for big premieres, so how bad is "the fandom" really? With the actress announced long ago and the trailers all featuring her prominently?

And does a message from Disney+ actually mean that there's a particularly unusual amount of racist hatred directed towards the actor, or simply an unacceptable (aka non-zero) amount? Without more information, it's impossible to say that "Star Wars fandom" is particularly rife with racism compared to any other comparable franchise fandom.

 

Well the actor decided to share the most vitriolic racist messages she received on her social media and Disney came out in support.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/entertainment/moses-ingram-obi-wan-kenobi-racism-cec/index.html

Quote

Ingram posted multiple examples of racist messages and comments on Instagram, noting that she has received hundreds of messages, some of which included the N-word.

 

[Ran]

I don't doubt that part of it, and it makes sense that since she highlighted it Disney has come out in support, as they should. But the assertion has been made that somehow SW is especially bad in this regard, and that's what I'm questioning. Is this more or less than other actors in the SW universe have gotten from racists, or actors in the MCU or other such franchises? It's a genuine unknown, IMO, without more information to compare with.

ETA: I should emphasize what I said before, that any number of racist messages, threats, etc. are unacceptable. I'm just focusing on the repeated-but-unproven assertion that Star Wars is uniquely bad, as opposed to perhaps Star Wars getting greater attention than other properties because of its long history, legacy, the sense that things are amiss on the corporate side with shaky reception of various projects, etc.

[Rhom]

Just now, Ran said:

I don't doubt that part of it, and it makes sense that since she highlighted it Disney has come out in support, as they should. But the assertion has been made that somehow SW is especially bad in this regard, and that's what I'm questioning. Is this more or less than other actors in the SW universe have gotten from racists, or actors in the MCU or other such franchises? It's a genuine unknown, IMO, without more information to compare with.

 

In my experience sadly... its social media in general.  The things that college athletes get from their own "fans" are equally bad.  There's a very vocal subsegment of our society that feels they can say things through the anonymity of the internet that they would never say to their face.

My money says, some of the very same people who sent her those messages would be the first to line up for her autograph at the local nerd convention.

[DMC]

Not only is it obviously very difficult to empirically demonstrate Star Wars fandom is more "racist" than other fandoms, I guess I just really don't get what the point of the argument is.  Is it that the content/creators are dogwhistling and subsequently attract racists at a disproportionate rate?  Cuz that seems silly.

[SpaceChampion]

Kumail's character, Haja Estree, said he's part of a group that OB1 and Leia could trust.  I assume it's rebels or a proto-rebellion and this is how Leia learns about it now, and begins making the connections she does to be able to be a key part of it 8 years later.

 

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't doubt that part of it, and it makes sense that since she highlighted it Disney has come out in support, as they should. But the assertion has been made that somehow SW is especially bad in this regard, and that's what I'm questioning. Is this more or less than other actors in the SW universe have gotten from racists, or actors in the MCU or other such franchises? It's a genuine unknown, IMO, without more information to compare with.

ETA: I should emphasize what I said before, that any number of racist messages, threats, etc. are unacceptable. I'm just focusing on the repeated-but-unproven assertion that Star Wars is uniquely bad, as opposed to perhaps Star Wars getting greater attention than other properties because of its long history, legacy, the sense that things are amiss on the corporate side with shaky reception of various projects, etc.

Star Wars appears to be more bad than, say, Marvel or DC has been. My hypothesis is because the fanbase for Star Wars is significantly skewing more old and more nostalgic than the fanbases for Marvel. 

But yes, I think this is a bigger problem than other fan bases. You don't have Marvel actors being chased off of social media. You don't have Disney specifically calling people out for their hatred of certain characters in TV shows in Marvel. And the notion that this is just what the internet is and just what fanbases are is obviously inaccurate given that most fanbases are not actually doing this same kind of bullshit. 

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Not only is it obviously very difficult to empirically demonstrate Star Wars fandom is more "racist" than other fandoms, I guess I just really don't get what the point of the argument is.  Is it that the content/creators are dogwhistling and subsequently attract racists at a disproportionate rate?  Cuz that seems silly.

The point is that Star Wars fandom has some really shitty people in it and that appears to be ignored by folks who think it is just like every other fanbase. There is no argument being made about the content or the creators (though to be fair, Star Wars was called out in the 70s for being super white people in space and having more aliens than minorities); the argument is that the fanbase itself is worse than a lot of other places. 

[Myrddin]

I wonder if Kumail's character will show up in Andor (this being a soft introduction).

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

the argument is that the fanbase itself is worse than a lot of other places. 

I understand that's the argument, I'm asking what's the point of that argument?  As in even if you're right, why does it matter?  If these actors were being "chased off," that'd be one thing, but they're not.  Disney, obviously, is defending her in this case.  And while cases like hers, or Kelly Tran's, or Boyega's are gross and outraging and all the rest, I don't think that affected their roles (Abrams just didn't care about Rose as a character regardless of her ethnicity).  And clearly in terms of the TV shows they are producing, they are not worried about featuring multiracial casts.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I understand that's the argument, I'm asking what's the point of that argument?  As in even if you're right, why does it matter?  If these actors were being "chased off," that'd be one thing, but they're not.  Disney, obviously, is defending her in this case.  And while cases like hers, or Kelly Tran's, or Boyega's are gross and outraging and all the rest, I don't think that affected their roles (Abrams just didn't care about Rose as a character regardless of her ethnicity).  And clearly in terms of the TV shows they are producing, they are not worried about featuring multiracial casts.

Because it's important to point out that this fanbase has a problem and be more active in fighting it, instead of just letting it passively fester and be okay with it?

Especially when some people are saying that it's not particularly special?

And yes, Kelly Marie Tran did effectively get chased off of social media. That Moses Ingram hasn't been yet doesn't mean that it should be any more acceptable - nor should we be gaslighting people that indicate that it's happening more. 

I guess we should care because it sucks more than other places and that we might have some vague ability to make that better? 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

I guess we should care because it sucks more than other places and that we might have some vague ability to make that better? 

I dunno, if it caused Disney to treat them differently again that'd be one thing, but I suppose I just don't think I have much ability to affect change when it comes to racists harassing actors on social media.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

Yeah, that bullshit mind reading crap from the ST, like (checks notes) when Vader read Luke's mind and found out he had a sister in rotj.

These fucking retcons of what force users can do just has to stop

LOL, come on now - Vader and Luke both kind of read each other's feelings. Luke senses Vader's conflict between light and dark, and Vader senses Luke's fear for his sister in ROTJ. That isn't the same as folks being able to find and pull very concrete information out of other people's minds.

Mind communication/telepathy is also possible between people sharing close bonds (like Luke and Leia in TESB), but the kind of thing in the ST and the show completely undermines crucial aspects in the OT and even in the PT.

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Like Jedi mind tricks work only on the weak minded, I would say mind reading works only on the weak minded, or in certain cases, the emotionally unstable. Vader reads Luke in RotJ because Luke didn't have the discipline to keep his thoughts in check "Your thoughts betray you". We can infer that Kylo Ren, as established, is very powerful with the Force, so he's able to extract info even from the most resistant victims. Palpatine could also easily feel Anakin's thoughts, too. 

I don't think Reva is particularly powerful. None of the Inquisitors really are. She extracted info out of a small time con artist who faced her more out of ignorance than actual bravery. It might actually have helped if she did attempt to do the same to Owen - try prying anything out of a stubborn moisture farmer.

As I said - it is more about reading emotions than actual thoughts. And to do this one doesn't have to make those weirdo grabbing gestures but one just stands and says something along the lines of 'your thoughts/feelings betray you.'

Fetish Guy is likely not more powerful in the Force than both Palpatine and Vader, so it is stupid to assume he could do something they couldn't. He got his entire training from Palpatine via the 'Snoke clone'.

[Relic]

Is there anything more pathetic in this life than a racist Star Wars stan? 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Not only is it obviously very difficult to empirically demonstrate Star Wars fandom is more "racist" than other fandoms, I guess I just really don't get what the point of the argument is.  Is it that the content/creators are dogwhistling and subsequently attract racists at a disproportionate rate?  Cuz that seems silly.

This might go back to the general tendency of certain critics painting Star Wars, especially the OT and ANH, as regressive movies. Basically a 'white movie white people'. This kind of thing seems to be projected on the specific fandom.

Insofar as content is concerned, I'd say that Lucas' Star Wars - while completely based on Campbell's not unproblematic Hero's Journey narrative - is certainly more progressive and revolutionary even if you take a look at the subject matter. The heroes are the underdogs, people who stand up, arms in hand, to overthrow a tyrannical empire. That is not a story that (re-)affirms the (political) status quo.

If you compare that, say, to the uniform fetish and the militaristic chain of command stuff that is one of the baseline of every Star Trek show Star Wars really is the better looking franchise.

24 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Because it's important to point out that this fanbase has a problem and be more active in fighting it, instead of just letting it passively fester and be okay with it?

How should one do that, seriously? Isn't that something that online platforms should be doing? Online hate is a serious problem, to be sure, but being fan of thing A doesn't mean you have a responsibility to or anything in common with an vague (online) community.

[Week]

46 minutes ago, Relic said:

Is there anything more pathetic in this life than a racist Star Wars stan? 

I would say those who claim to not be racist and join the dog-pile* because they "just don't like the character."

Certainly, a potentially valid opinion, however not a critical one that must be shared in the absence of context and sense.

 

*Within conversations where racist vitriol is also spewed. After the fact, sure, but like ... interrogate why you feel so strongly.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Week said:

Certainly, a potentially valid opinion, however not a critical one that must be shared in the absence of context and sense.

If you are saying what i think you are saying you are barking up the absolutely wrong tree. 

[Week]

52 minutes ago, Relic said:

If you are saying what i think you are saying you are barking up the absolutely wrong tree. 

? I don't think so. How are you interpreting that? 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 hours ago, Week said:

I would say those who claim to not be racist and join the dog-pile* because they "just don't like the character."

Certainly, a potentially valid opinion, however not a critical one that must be shared in the absence of context and sense.

 

*Within conversations where racist vitriol is also spewed. After the fact, sure, but like ... interrogate why you feel so strongly.

This. 

ETA: additionally, there was a narrative that developed among SW culture war chuds on social media, prior to the first episode, that Disney was pulling a "bait and switch". "Kenobi"  would shift the focus of the show to the POC female character instead of the titular character. Because "virtue signalling, something, something. Feminism, something something." We're through the looking glass here people... 

In reality, this is clickbait for the lowest common denominator. There is no way; certainly no objective measure; where someone could say Reva was the star of the first two episodes. 

Behold:

 

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, come on now - Vader and Luke both kind of read each other's feelings. Luke senses Vader's conflict between light and dark, and Vader senses Luke's fear for his sister in ROTJ. That isn't the same as folks being able to find and pull very concrete information out of other people's minds. 

Mind communication/telepathy is also possible between people sharing close bonds (like Luke and Leia in TESB), but the kind of thing in the ST and the show completely undermines crucial aspects in the OT and even in the PT.

Such as what? 

Not all force users have the same powers. The notion that you can 'read the emotion' and get 'sister' out of that is fanwankery. Darth Vader not being able to read minds is not particularly weird, any more than it's weird Cal Kestis has psychometry or Reva and Kylo Ren can read minds - it's just another force power that some can use and others can't. 

Reva not using it more makes much less sense, honestly, but it ain't like this undermines the entire universe any more than the Emperor being able to use force lightning does. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said - it is more about reading emotions than actual thoughts. And to do this one doesn't have to make those weirdo grabbing gestures but one just stands and says something along the lines of 'your thoughts/feelings betray you.'

Fetish Guy is likely not more powerful in the Force than both Palpatine and Vader, so it is stupid to assume he could do something they couldn't. He got his entire training from Palpatine via the 'Snoke clone'.

I get you don't like Kylo Ren, but the notion that he's not as powerful as Vader even though he's the son of his daughter is not actually supported by the text. He got his training from Snoke and Luke. And as we've seen repeatedly, getting trained is not nearly as important as inherent abilities.

Now, you might not like that but it's entirely canonical. No one taught Luke how to use TK to get his lightsaber in the cave any more than they taught that kid how to do it in TLJ. No one taught Luke how to communicate and reach out to Leia in TESB. This seems like absurd quibbling to justify you not liking something.