Star Warsing Across the Universe

[Heartofice]

11 hours ago, DMC said:

Not only is it obviously very difficult to empirically demonstrate Star Wars fandom is more "racist" than other fandoms, I guess I just really don't get what the point of the argument is.  Is it that the content/creators are dogwhistling and subsequently attract racists at a disproportionate rate?  Cuz that seems silly.

At some point we as a society are going to need to accept the fact that edgelords and shitposters say stuff on the internet and we should try not to put any actual weight on it or think it's representative of anything. The whole media industry seems geared around reacting to what someone said on the internet once, as if it's important. 

I've no idea if SW fanbase is any more racist than others, maybe, but probably just because its dwellers might tend to hide away in the darker corners of the internet. 

Either way I think this stuff gets amplified far too much, quite often cynically by major studios to deflect from the fact that they just made a turkey of a movie. Ghostbusters 2016 or The Last Jedi seem like the most common example of that, where studios tried to change the narrative so that all genuine criticism of something bad must be motivated by racism / misogyny. 

9 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

Because it's important to point out that this fanbase has a problem and be more active in fighting it, instead of just letting it passively fester and be okay with it?

What does 'fighting it' even mean? Being more angry on the internet? Taking the opposite view and just shouting harder? Explaining why you are right and calling people racist until you are blue in the face? Good luck.

I think first step would be to acknowledge what some fans are disgruntled about and not just immediately lumping them in with the racist bottom feeders on Reddit for thinking it. 

I'd say there is a perception that Disney prioritises a progressive diversity agenda over making good movies amongst some fans and I think there is definite truth that Disney has a progressive diversity agenda, though I doubt it is looking to make bad movies on purpose. Fans just want Disney to make good TV and movies, that respect their franchise and beloved characters, rather than be preached to or be told to think a certain way. I don't think Disney always do a good job of that, and they've been making quite a few turds, and have a tendency to insert poorly written diverse characters into their properties, and just expect that's all they have to do. 

Fans don't seem to take much issue with Rogue One's incredibly diverse cast, mainly because the movie was respectful of the franchise and was seen to be good. Lando and Leia are two very popular characters from the OT.. I also don't see a lot of hate for Mace Windu. Even in the MCU there seems to be this perception that theres a misogynistic backlash, but compare the reactions to a character that is well liked, such as Black Widow, to one that is mostly hated like Captain Marvel. 

Fans's just want stuff to be good. It's really simple. If you manage to make it diverse and progressive at the same time then great, nobody cares. 

[sifth]

This is why I hate social media. It truly was one of the worst things we've invented and I honestly feel it's just created an easier way to bully people.

[Heartofice]

Anyway, I watched the 3rd ep of Obi Wan, and its a big improvement on the previous instalments.
 

• In general the episode slowed things down a bit and allowed more focus on Obi Wan and his character. The relationship between him and Leia became more interesting because it showed a contrast between his broken cynical outlook and her childlike perception of people as good. I genuinely enjoyed their interactions this time and didn't find them corny like last time. Really though, it was closer to the show I was hoping for, dealing with Obi Wan and how he's changed and how he thinks, rather than some lightweight kids fluff.
   
• Leia was also a lot better this episode, easier to watch, less like a kid who's reading lines written for an adult and more like an actual child. She put in a good performance too.
   
• It also added stuff to the SW universe that felt organic and interesting. Seeing how the Empire affects planets that aren't Tatooine felt like something I'd want to see more of. Then the Jedi underground movement was also something of interest.
   
• Having Vader in the episode was always a plus, but there is something not especially intimidating about the way they frame him. His presence feels a little cheap right now. I'd hope for more than just the same boring lines he always comes out with.

[Werthead]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Not sure what good that would do me, to be honest, especially in light of the fact that there doesn't seem to be a coherent attempt to actually establish a proper continuity.

The "new canon" comics and novels have already been contradicted and overridden by the newer TV shows and movies, so reading them to stay "in the loop" is a questionable exercise, though some of them (particularly Kieron Gillen's comics) are decent in themselves.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I really enjoyed the first two episodes of Kenobi. 

I have never gotten into the animated stuff though.

[Myrddin]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Anyway, I watched the 3rd ep of Obi Wan, and its a big improvement on the previous instalments.
 

Third episode is out today, not Friday?

Dude! Third episode is out today. not Friday. 

Be back later.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Third episode is out today, not Friday?

Dude! Third episode is out today. not Friday. 

Be back later.

Yeah my mind works in the following manner:

- Tuesdays: Better Call Saul (not this week it seems)
- Wednesdays: Something on Disney +

[Rhom]

6 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Third episode is out today, not Friday?

Dude! Third episode is out today. not Friday. 

Be back later.

Yeah, I just assumed that since the first two episodes came out on Friday, the new releases would be the same.   

[Raja]

Thought the second episode had some good moments but was a little poor. Is Reva still running on those rooftops? That sequence seemed weirdly directed. I'm glad the grand inquistor guy is dead, he was really hamming that role up, which I suppose is the point. The good parts of the show are Reva & Obi Wan, nothing else has really got me invested yet but it's early days.

I'm still curious enough to keep watching, especially as I want to see Christensen as Vader, but Leia is the weakest part of the show and I'm frankly tired of 'older dude looking after child' thing that Disney/ Marvel/ Star Wars like doing in their shows & movies.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

Such as what? 

Not all force users have the same powers. The notion that you can 'read the emotion' and get 'sister' out of that is fanwankery. Darth Vader not being able to read minds is not particularly weird, any more than it's weird Cal Kestis has psychometry or Reva and Kylo Ren can read minds - it's just another force power that some can use and others can't. 

Reva not using it more makes much less sense, honestly, but it ain't like this undermines the entire universe any more than the Emperor being able to use force lightning does. 

Traditionally, Star Wars doesn't go with 'special Force powers' for 'special people' thing. Psychometry is something the EU came up with for a specific species, namely the species of Quinlan Vos.

Obviously the traditional 'mind-reading thing' Vader and Luke and Palpatine show in the OT is a generic Jedi/Sith trait. And it is not enough to take the location of the rebel base from Leia's mind.

11 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

I get you don't like Kylo Ren, but the notion that he's not as powerful as Vader even though he's the son of his daughter is not actually supported by the text. He got his training from Snoke and Luke. And as we've seen repeatedly, getting trained is not nearly as important as inherent abilities.

Anakin Skywalker has been conceived by the Force itself, and he seems to have the strongest known Force potential of all time. Nothing indicates that his grandson is as powerful as Luke or Anakin himself. If he was, then Palpatine's granddaughter would likely have been no match for him - as the Emperor himself seems to have been weaker in the Force than Anakin prior to the latter's crippling injuries.

11 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

Now, you might not like that but it's entirely canonical. No one taught Luke how to use TK to get his lightsaber in the cave any more than they taught that kid how to do it in TLJ. No one taught Luke how to communicate and reach out to Leia in TESB. This seems like absurd quibbling to justify you not liking something. 

I'd imagine Yoda taught Luke how to reach out to people, or else Luke may have not be able to pull that off. And, of course, one also imagines that Luke was told or knew that Jedi could move things with the Force, or else he would have never even tried.

Bottom line is - if there is a Force technique which allows you to rip something out of another mind - then why the hell does the Emperor not use such people throughout the OT? Why is Vader questioning Leia and not (somebody who has the ability of) Third Sister?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The "new canon" comics and novels have already been contradicted and overridden by the newer TV shows and movies, so reading them to stay "in the loop" is a questionable exercise, though some of them (particularly Kieron Gillen's comics) are decent in themselves.

That is what I heard, too. I read some of the earlier stuff which came out around the time TFA was released, and I hope that there are some good stories there (although the novels I read were mostly not exactly great, especially not that Vader-Palpatine adventure on Ryloth).

I mostly read the old Star Wars because of the continuity and larger picture I was buying with each novel, comic, etc. And without that all you get may be an interesting story in itself which isn't even remotely the same.

But if anybody can recommend specific 'New Canon' works they find good, I'd appreciate that. I still do want to read good Star Wars literature, even if that is less of priority these days than earlier.

16 minutes ago, Raja said:

I'm still curious enough to keep watching, especially as I want to see Christensen as Vader, but Leia is the weakest part of the show and I'm frankly tired of 'older dude looking after child' thing that Disney/ Marvel/ Star Wars like doing in their shows & movies.

This is certainly the weakest part of 'The Mandalorian' ... but if Leia Organa is in danger it is different than if they have a baby Yoda play that role.

[Werthead]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bottom line is - if there is a Force technique which allows you to rip something out of another mind - then why the hell does the Emperor not use such people throughout the OT? Why is Vader questioning Leia and not (somebody who has the ability of) Third Sister?

It would be good if we see a moment when the Emperor and Vader kill off all the Inquisitors and "Dark Side Users" before the events of Episode IV to return to the strict Rule of Two. The RoT is silly, but it does at least explain why Vader and Palpatine don't have a huge army of other Dark Side users running around, and the "well, they're Dark Side Force Users but not 'Sith' technically," excuse is pure BS. "You, my friend, are all that's left of their ways...apart from all the Younglings and Padawans we turned to the Dark Side and are all still out there doing our bidding, yo," as Tarkin famously said.

Eliminating any allies with the "Force extraction" power does handily explain that issue.

[Corvinus85]

Vader's greatest skill is letting people he has in his grasp get away.

Spoiler

I didn't expect such an early encounter between the two. 

The episode had good tension, I enjoyed the developing relationship between Obi-Wan and Leia, and great to see Indira Varma, too. 

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

9 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It would be good if we see a moment when the Emperor and Vader kill off all the Inquisitors and "Dark Side Users" before the events of Episode IV to return to the strict Rule of Two. The RoT is silly, but it does at least explain why Vader and Palpatine don't have a huge army of other Dark Side users running around, and the "well, they're Dark Side Force Users but not 'Sith' technically," excuse is pure BS. "You, my friend, are all that's left of their ways...apart from all the Younglings and Padawans we turned to the Dark Side and are all still out there doing our bidding, yo," as Tarkin famously said.

Eliminating any allies with the "Force extraction" power does handily explain that issue.

Obviously Kyle Katarn killed them all! Looking forward to that series! 

One can always dream.  I have always been more into the games than any other part of the SW universe. Thermal detonators >>> lightsabers. 

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Obviously Kyle Katarn killed them all! Looking forward to that series! 

One can always dream.  I have always been more into the games than any other part of the SW universe. Thermal detonators >>> lightsabers. 

Heresy! You beat the Jedi Knight games with only the lightsaber, or you don't beat them at all.

[Jaxom 1974]

Yeah. I'd thought Friday too...this was a nice surprise today...

That wasn't a fast episode, but it seemed dense with stuff.

There are still some silly generalities of the story process, but it was well done overall.

I still like Little Leia.

Vader...I hadn't thought of it, bit it's always good to hear James Earl Jones...and the menace he exuded was a little hit or miss.  But still it was there.  And I know he really wants to make Obi-Wan suffer, but he just stops because the fire is restarted...?

I do hope they touch more upon the Rebellion and its proper foundation that we see in Rebels and Rogue One...right now, it seems only nascent...is the path described here part of the stuff Amidala was supposed to have help start in Episode III, but the scenes were cut...?

[Poobah]

6 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Obviously Kyle Katarn killed them all! Looking forward to that series! 

Urgh of all the things Disney fucked over when they decided to de-canonize everything that wasn't the movies in pursuit of <checks notes> making three bad movies with no clear plan or arc which totally undermined the OT and made the prequels look well constructed by comparison - I'm most annoyed about Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade being erased.

[Corvinus85]

I'm assuming that in order to not contradict the classic line in ANH about learner/master and circle completion.

Spoiler

That Obi-Wan and Vader will have a second encounter in this show where Obi-Wan comes out on top. Otherwise, if this is it, Vader just wiped the floor with him.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

It would be good if we see a moment when the Emperor and Vader kill off all the Inquisitors and "Dark Side Users" before the events of Episode IV to return to the strict Rule of Two. The RoT is silly, but it does at least explain why Vader and Palpatine don't have a huge army of other Dark Side users running around, and the "well, they're Dark Side Force Users but not 'Sith' technically," excuse is pure BS. "You, my friend, are all that's left of their ways...apart from all the Younglings and Padawans we turned to the Dark Side and are all still out there doing our bidding, yo," as Tarkin famously said.

Eliminating any allies with the "Force extraction" power does handily explain that issue.

I don't think they can do that prior to ANH considering that the Inquisitors are still out and about in Rebels.

That said, they no longer play a role in the later seasons, so who knows.

Although I've less of an issue there ... Tarkin talks about Jedi traditions there, and whatever the Emperor does is not Jedi stuff per se. And he is clearly wrong that Vader is the last remnant of Force-related stuff in the Empire since the Emperor himself is a Sith Lord - which he wasn't during the writing process of ANH, so there is also a minor retcon there.

I enjoyed the third episode as well. The imagery and light effects really reflected Obi-Wan's horror about seeing Anakin again rather well. Didn't understand or care about Vader randomly killing people on the street. That seemed to be beneath him.

I also think it makes sense that he wants Obi-Wan to suffer in the same/similar way as he himself was made to suffer.

The talk about the Empire once being or appearing to be a force for good I really don't like. Indira Varma's character didn't need 'to join' the Empire (it isn't a club but the galactic government, basically) for idealistic reasons - she could have just been drafted or she could have joined for selfish reasons only to realize that she wasn't willing to do what they demanded.

If you want idealists and stuff then go with folks who joined the Republic military in the Clone Wars to (eventually) realize they are stuck in an authoritarian regime later.

Is the Grand Inquisitor really dead now? If so, that would be very odd.

And about Third Sister: Does she have some kind of hidden ulterior motive? Is she perhaps actually anti-Empire and hides that behind cruelty? Her reaction to the Jedi scriblings may indicate something like that. Does she, perhaps, plan to assassinate Vader for his deeds in the Jedi Temple if she can only get to him?

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm assuming that in order to not contradict the classic line in ANH about learner/master and circle completion.

  Hide contents

That Obi-Wan and Vader will have a second encounter in this show where Obi-Wan comes out on top. Otherwise, if this is it, Vader just wiped the floor with him.

Something like that could make sense ... but then, TCW also didn't bother giving us a Dooku who wiped the floor with Anakin/Obi-Wan. That could have helped so that Obi-Wan's remark about taking him together this time could have made more sense. It can no longer be a reference to AOTC, after all.

Insofar as Obi-Wan escaping Vader there - it is kind of ridiculous that Vader wouldn't show up with a massive fleet to really close down the planet.

And I must say it again - Vader kind of living on Mustafar feels really nonsensical. It is fine if he had a retreat there, but if he permanently lived there he would have little to no power in the Imperial hierarchy, especially not in the field of court intrigues and the like.

[Werthead]

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I don't think they can do that prior to ANH considering that the Inquisitors are still out and about in Rebels.

Rebels is still like 5-2 years before ANH, so there could be a "second purge" six months before ANH or something to make the situation make more sense.

Quote

Urgh of all the things Disney fucked over when they decided to de-canonize everything that wasn't the movies in pursuit of <checks notes> making three bad movies with no clear plan or arc which totally undermined the OT and made the prequels look well constructed by comparison - I'm most annoyed about Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade being erased.

I said a while ago that the new canon would have to prove itself by being better than the Expanded Universe, and that would be helped by a fair bit of the EU (maybe 20%) being dogshit (hi, Kevin J. Anderson). However, the new canon has not made a convincing argument for itself thusfar and been let down by multiple projects being crap (hi Chuck Wendig) or ill-thought-out. Where the new canon has gotten better and improved is, er, where it's reintroduced ideas, concepts and storylines almost wholesale from the EU.