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Star Warsing Across the Universe


IlyaP
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6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Better Call Saul has shown you can create tension in prequels even if you kinda know the outcome, but I think the bigger problem for the Obi Wan show is that it’s story is just so generic and cookie cutter. They just threw a kidnap plot in there, a tired trope about protecting a mouthy young kid, and hoped to build around that. It so far hasn’t really felt like it’s interested in examining Obi Wans character particularly deeply, it seemed more interested in young Leia at times.

I think we certainly see Obi-Wan in a more broken state in this show than he is later in Rebels or during ANH. I mean, he actually works for a living at a crappy job and he (still) lives in a cave, having yet to acquire or build the hut he lives in in ANH. I'd imagine that we will see him in a better state after his return.

We can also be quite sure that saving Leia is just the original motivation for Obi-Wan leaving. Now he knows about Vader, so this is going to change his priorities. I don't imagine the show is going to be Obi-Wan and Leia on the run from the inquisitors...

It seems to weirdo fake Jedi set them up to meet one of the early Rebel cells, so one might imagine that Obi-Wan recovers something of his old self once he realizes that not all hope is lost.

3 hours ago, DMC said:

This is a pointless distinction if you buy into the ethos.  They serve the Senate and all its members therein -- not just its leader or the "Supreme Chancellor."  That's the entire point.  And yeah, they do serve particular Senators when circumstances require.  There's a few Clone Wars episodes revolving around that.

I'm sorry, but in TCW Bail Organa does actually serve Obi-Wan/the Jedi rather than the other way around. Or don't you remember the episode where Obi-Wan sends Bails and Jar Jar as his errand boys to Toydaria?

Now, if Obi-Wan had been Bail's errand boy in that episodes - and in others - this whole thing would make more sense. But as it is it doesn't.

And to be clear - normally Jedi serve at the Senate's pleasure, i.e. when they formally task or charge the Jedi Order with doing something of their behalf. Valorum pushed things too far when he sent Jedi to Naboo without there being a formal Senate Resolution on the matter.

During the Clone Wars the Senate made Palpatine their dictator. He directed the war - and thus also the Jedi - as he saw fit, and not as the Senate may have wanted.

2 hours ago, Maia said:

I liked it a lot. Little Leia is, maybe a little dumb for a 10-year-old with her upbringing and looks a bit too young , but the  actress is good for a kid that age, IMHO. Also, was it hinted that she has some Force mind powers? In particular, sensing lies and fears? 

It seems like that. I guess it is the Force, and it is good to see that they are apparently wanting to portray her so that those intuitive talents help her develop her political acumen.

It is a kind of pity that we didn't get Winter in the show. She is a EU character, but giving Leia a close friend/body double/bodyguard was one of Zahn's smarter ideas and it is seriously something Bail should consider after Leia's return.

2 hours ago, Maia said:

Obi-Wan has been living in the armpit of nowhere for 10 years, deliberately cut off from any but the most widespread news in the Empire. Unless Vader appeared in official broadcasts to the Outer Rim - which, why would he? Kenobi had no reason to think that he was alive or hear his name.  Force connection between them broke when Anakin turned to the dark side, as has been already established with Ahsoka, so Obi wouldn't have sensed him from afar either. It makes perfect sense to me that he was unaware until this moment. Bail had to know, of course, but it seems like this was their first contact since Leia's delivery. So, the question here is why Bail didn't mention it at this juncture - but maybe he'll explain his reasons yet.

Well, in a sense Vader is as prominent a figure as Count Dooku and General Grievous. The folks on Tatooine know that there are Imperial Inquisitors so it stands to reason they could have also have heard about one of the Emperor's top enforcers.

That they didn't would have to mean Vader kept a very low profile ... and that would certainly be an odd choice for the writers of the show. After all, Vader's entire function works only when people fear him. And for people to fear him they must know that he exists and get at least a sketchy picture of what he can do.

2 hours ago, Maia said:

That admiral on the Death Star in ANH seemed unfamiliar enough with Vader that he chose to sass him. It certainly seemed in the OT that Vader had been more of a behind-the-scenes presence before Tarkin's death. Known to the elite, sure, but not the galaxy at large.

One can get that impression, but Vader must not be Palpatine's top dog to be publicly known. He could just as well be viewed as, say, the head Inquisitor or a high-ranking special operative who is sent in to deal with things when regular Imperials aren't up to the job.

2 hours ago, Maia said:

I also don't understand the whole "we know what happens to these characters, so there is no tension" position. First of all, even supposedly original shows and movies very seldom surprise on this score, unless an actor choses to leave mid-show run, that is. Particularly family-friendly adventure films and shows.  And second, historicals exist.

Yeah, that seems to be pointless nit-picking ... and it is going to be much worse in that Andor show were we exactly know what's going to happen to the main characters.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

This is betrayed in Rogue One where Krennic effectively treats Vader as Palpatine's chief of staff - clearly above Tarkin in the chain of command.

LOL, no, Vader is certainly not Palpatine's 'chief of staff'. This would not be a job you would not be doing from a weirdo palace on a backwater volcano world.

Sure enough, Vader does have the ear of the Emperor ... and Krennec knows that. But that is because Darth Vader is the Sith apprentice of Darth Sidious, not because Darth Vader is the chief of staff of Emperor Palpatine.

Palpatine's 'chief of staff' was Grand Vizier Sate Pestage in the old setting, and it might still be Mas Amedda, the former Speaker of the Senate, in the new continuity.

If Vader was Palpatine's 'chief of staff' then most of the galaxy would know about that because that would be one of the most important position in the Empire ... and Vader would have to do a lot of public work in that role. Speaking for the Emperor, meeting with people on the Emperor's behalf, representing the Emperor, etc.

And to be clear - Motti's complaints about Vader in ANH make even less sense with RO in mind where Vader butchered quite a lot of people with his Force skills. The idea that a high-ranking Imperial officer wouldn't be aware of that is, quite frankly, ridiculous. That said - one can make sense of that exchange if one interprets the whole thing as the mundane Imperial hierarchy not being that keen to have Sith Lord direct their day-to-day affairs. The criticism is more about Vader being ineffectual with his magic and old religion and not him being a fraud.

But RO certainly fucked up Vader being kind of outside the normal military hierarchy in ANH, and Tarkin being the man in charge. This is also the reason why I really dislike how they wrote Tarkin in RO. He should have basically been Krennec - the guy who believed in this Death Star project and who pushed it through against all opposition and who now, that it was nearing completion, was looking forward to reap the rewards.

I mean, there was considerable potential there - the old Audio Drama includes a subplot about Tarkin and Motti dreaming to seize control of the Empire with the help of the Death Star. RO could have included that ... and it could have included Palpatine assigning Vader to the Death Star to ensure that something like that doesn't happen.

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

I would say Vader was always the Emperor's enforcer, outside of the direct military/political chain of command. He spent the early years of the Empire probably hunting the remaining Jedi, then as that died down he likely went wherever there were major nuisances that needed to be put down hard. The Emperor can probably command Vader to take orders from Tarkin.

Yes, sure, that's what people usually thought about this thing. But he should still be more prominent, more well-known than he seems to be in the Kenobi show if he were acting in that capacity. I mean, I can only repeat that the people of Tatooine apparently know what Inquisitors are.

If Vader was truly active as the Emperor's most important enforcer then, after ten years, even folks on Tatooine should have heard about him. After all, while a remote world, it is also a hive of scum and villainy, meaning lots of people from all corners of the galaxy wash up there. And they tell tales and spread rumors.

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3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Do we have any other reference points  for Vader before this series?

I mean, we have the end of Revenge of the Sith when Palpatine tells him Padme is dead.  I suppose that could be many years later, but that certainly wasn't my impression.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm sorry, but in TCW Bail Organa does actually serve Obi-Wan/the Jedi rather than the other way around. Or don't you remember the episode where Obi-Wan sends Bails and Jar Jar as his errand boys to Toydaria?

Now, if Obi-Wan had been Bail's errand boy in that episodes - and in others - this whole thing would make more sense. But as it is it doesn't.

And to be clear - normally Jedi serve at the Senate's pleasure, i.e. when they formally task or charge the Jedi Order with doing something of their behalf. Valorum pushed things too far when he sent Jedi to Naboo without there being a formal Senate Resolution on the matter.

Um, I'm sorry, but if you think any Senator ever "served" the Jedi you are deeply misunderstanding the institutional arrangement Lucas set up for the Republic before Order 66.  The Jedi serve the Senate, and at times specific Senators.  This is the primary plot of Attack of the Clones.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no, Vader is certainly not Palpatine's 'chief of staff'. This would not be a job you would not be doing from a weirdo palace on a backwater volcano world.

Sure enough, Vader does have the ear of the Emperor ... and Krennec knows that. But that is because Darth Vader is the Sith apprentice of Darth Sidious, not because Darth Vader is the chief of staff of Emperor Palpatine.

Palpatine's 'chief of staff' was Grand Vizier Sate Pestage in the old setting, and it might still be Mas Amedda, the former Speaker of the Senate, in the new continuity.

LOL, no, you are again deeply misunderstanding what I meant by "chief of staff."  I meant he was Palpatine's "gatekeeper" and clear number 2 - as the WH chief of staff is described in the "imperial presidency" framework.  Obviously, yes, there are plenty of other aspects of Vader's role that are radically different from such a position.  One of them being Palpatine could not send James Baker out to personally crush a rebellion.

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Um, I'm sorry, but if you think any Senator ever "served" the Jedi you are deeply misunderstanding the institutional arrangement Lucas set up for the Republic before Order 66.  The Jedi serve the Senate, and at times specific Senators.  This is the primary plot of Attack of the Clones.

Just rewatch the episode. Organa is asked to do a thing for Obi-Wan, and he agrees. We never get any scenario where Obi-Wan does what Organa wants him to do.

1 minute ago, DMC said:

LOL, no, you are again deeply misunderstanding what I meant by "chief of staff."  I meant he was Palpatine's "gatekeeper" and clear number 2 - as the WH chief of staff is described in the "imperial presidency" framework.  Obviously, yes, there are plenty of other aspects of Vader's role that are radically different from such a position.  One of them being Palpatine could not send James Baker out to personally crush a rebellion.

I know perfectly well what you meant by that - and Vader just doesn't have that function. Vader is clearly not Palpatine's 'gatekeeper' - that would be a person like Mas Amedda or Sate Pestage or whoever else acts as his secretary or chief of staff.

Vader does have the Emperor's ear and there is a chance you can get to the Emperor if you go through Vader ... but that's neither Vader's purpose nor his role in the Imperial hierarchy.

One cannot even say that Vader is an unofficial or informal gatekeeper ... considering in RO we see him at his private retreat on an isolated world in the middle of nowhere. At best one can say Vader is a kind of back door/shortcut to Palpatine for whoever knows how close these two are. Like, you know, it would be if you knew who was the President's best buddy in the local chapter of the Freemasons or something along those lines.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I know perfectly well what you meant by that

You demonstrably don't if you're identifying Mas Amedda or Sate Pestage as his CoS.

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56 minutes ago, DMC said:

You demonstrably don't if you're identifying Mas Amedda or Sate Pestage as his CoS.

Well, they do fulfill that function in the stories they show up. And they are, at times, so strict gatekeepers that they keep even Vader out.

So far we don't even have any direct evidence from the movies that Vader is even involved in the government of the Empire. He is Palpatine's enforcer, the man out in the field. That he has a direct line, presumably, to His Imperial Majesty doesn't mean that (m)any people who try to reach the Emperor go through him.

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Obi-Wan not just living on a backwater planet that is explicitly stated as not being part of the Empire, but he's also chosen to live in a cave outside of town as well. He seems to be deliberately disconnecting from society as part of his general brokenness/desire to keep himself and Luke unnoticed, so while he's aware enough of the wider galaxy to know that the Empire has Jedi-hunting Inquisitors it's not unreasonable to assume that he's never heard the name "Darth Vader" mentioned, regardless of how well-known or not Vader is in the Empire.

Bail Organa, on the other hand, is someone who you would expect to have heard that name before, so we have to assume that he doesn't know Vader is Anakin, which is also plausible - AFAIR only Yoda and Obi-Wan saw the recording where Sidious gave him that name, and if they're assuming he died on Mustafar then there's no reason why they'd need to tell Bail Anakin's Sith name.

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Posted (edited)

Ahsoka teaser was shown. Not online yet, but the description is enough to get me excited:

 

Spoiler

We begin with a hooded figure standing in a ship. The cockpit in the background looks like it’s a YT-1300. Then just a bunch of beautiful shots. Among them, a hooded figure walking between a series of columns outside. A trio of character entering a room. One has a flight jacket on and big green tails coming out of her head. Hera Syndulla? A shot of a table with a cup on it as a hand tries to move it with the Force. A hand slowly touches the ground with sand and symbols on it. Then, the hood figure takes off the hood. It’s Ahsoka. That was followed by the title card and the big moment. We see the mural from the end of Star Wars Rebels and a figure enters the frame. She’s got purple armor on and short hair. It’s Sabine Wren.

https://gizmodo.com/star-wars-ahsoka-first-footage-disney-plus-1848968433

 

Edited by RumHam
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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, they do fulfill that function in the stories they show up. And they are, at times, so strict gatekeepers that they keep even Vader out.

So far we don't even have any direct evidence from the movies that Vader is even involved in the government of the Empire. He is Palpatine's enforcer, the man out in the field. That he has a direct line, presumably, to His Imperial Majesty doesn't mean that (m)any people who try to reach the Emperor go through him.

Read the Darth Vader comics that are part of the new canon. 

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I don't know the minutia of Star Wars, never read the books or watched the animated shows so maybe this has been covered.

If Obi-Wan is concerned about Lukes safety then shouldn't he be on a different planet? I mean if the Inquisitors find him on the same planet, same "neighborhood", as Uncle Owen Skywalker shouldn't they wonder if that was a coincidence. The inquisitors may not know Uncle Owen is there but Darth Vader has to know. So him even being there puts Luke at more of a risk while he is being hunted. If they weren't hunting Jedi then yeah ok he should be ok.

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2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Read the Darth Vader comics that are part of the new canon. 

Not sure what good that would do me, to be honest, especially in light of the fact that there doesn't seem to be a coherent attempt to actually establish a proper continuity.

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Just now, dbunting said:

I don't know the minutia of Star Wars, never read the books or watched the animated shows so maybe this has been covered.

If Obi-Wan is concerned about Lukes safety then shouldn't he be on a different planet? I mean if the Inquisitors find him on the same planet, same "neighborhood", as Uncle Owen Skywalker shouldn't they wonder if that was a coincidence. The inquisitors may not know Uncle Owen is there but Darth Vader has to know. So him even being there puts Luke at more of a risk while he is being hunted. If they weren't hunting Jedi then yeah ok he should be ok.

Yes, that is an issue. The show kind of made it make some sense in light of the fact that Obi-Wan insists that Luke must be trained. I also enjoy it that Bail makes it clear that the boy is not somehow more important than the girl ... nobody ever preparing Leia to one day be a Jedi strikes one as a massive oversight.

In fact, thinking about that, I'd actually like it if it turned out that the Organa's hired an ex-Jedi or other Force user to kind of clandestinely train Leia in the Force, possibly in a way that doesn't make her realize what they are doing. I'd kill off such a character a couple of years before ANH, perhaps when Leia is fifteen or sixteen, so that this isn't an immediate concern for her during the Galactic Civil War.

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7 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Whether you find it coherent or not, it answers many of the questions you guys are talking about.

Well, then just enlighten us with one or two lines ;-).

Addendum to the Obi-Wan thing:

I agree with @dbunting that Obi-Wan's presence pretty much endangers Luke. Just as hiding Luke with Anakin's stepbrother is kind of silly. Even if we go with the idea that they don't know that Vader is alive ... Palpatine could know about Anakin's family, so what's going to happen if he or his henchmen paid Owen a visit?

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I hadn’t considered that, but yeah Obi Wan believing Vader to be dead makes a lot more sense of his decision to put Luke on Tatooine. If he had no reason to think Vader would look for him, then he may as well live with his actual (sort of) Uncle and keep the Skywalker name.

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I liked Obi-Wan for the most part, but I can't stand the child actress. I mean it's sadly to be expected though, given that most child actors/actress are usually never great.

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5 minutes ago, sifth said:

I liked Obi-Wan for the most part, but I can't stand the child actress. I mean it's sadly to be expected though, given that most child actors/actress are usually never great.

I think she did good, I just think they gave her too much of a spotlight. I had more of an issue with the inquisitors. 3rd sister is clearly ambitious and gets chastised for it, but isn't ambition and personal glory a part of the dark side? Why act like she is doing something unexpected.

Also, do we know her(3rd sister) backstory in the animated series or books? I am assuming she is one of the children we see in the opening Order 66 sequence, a couple of those kids were black females.

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm not impressed with Obi-Wan so far, feels like a real wasted opportunity. 1st episode had promise but the 2nd was a shocker with so much weak writing. And I absolutely cannot stand the Riva character. No charisma whatsoever.

Hopefully something changes dramatically in the 3rd episode. I was looking forward to a series focused on Obi-wan and Vader but all these other elements are ruining it.

Also how is the grand inquisitor so stupid as to be taken off guard and killed by Riva? Reminds me of the ridiculous Snoke death in TLJ.

Edited by Darryk
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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, then just enlighten us with one or two lines ;-).

Nope. you guys are having a back and forth about the definition of "chief of staff" in the Galactic Empire. I'm out

Personally, I'm not convinced you guys aren't hostile A.I's locked in epic eternal message board combat. Cyborgs at least. There's way too much effort being put into this topic. 

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