Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[fionwe1987]

25 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Not to mention that they're failing to build her up before the coup, which for me was a strong, well done moment in the books.

Agreed. It's their Red Wedding moment. They better play it right. 

[karaddin]

@fionwe1987 lol I forgot to actually take new information into account with that theory. I'll check this in a bit but did the weaves Liandrin used look anything like the shielding from the first season? There is a possibility the black still have true ones but not the tower as a whole, but that's really starting to stretch.

[Slurktan]

19 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hmmm but the Aes Sedai have no idea the Oaths are ineffective after stilling. There's no way she'd be testing this. 

 

Moiraine does if she lied to Lan to get him to go away.  If.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

@fionwe1987 lol I forgot to actually take new information into account with that theory. I'll check this in a bit but did the weaves Liandrin used look anything like the shielding from the first season? There is a possibility the black still have true ones but not the tower as a whole, but that's really starting to stretch.

We don't see her weaves. But it is quick and immediate in effect. I think the Login scene was done that way for effect. 

17 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Moiraine does if she lied to Lan to get him to go away.  If.

She did not. Her statement is absolutely defensible under the Oaths.

[Gertrude]

6 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

She did not. Her statement is absolutely defensible under the Oaths.

They are not equals. Lan is superior, obviously :p

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

They are not equals. Lan is superior, obviously :p

Right, she can easily have been thinking that during her answer, because she does see his life as more important than hers. They captured that bleeding-heart aspect of Moiraine very well, here. 

[karaddin]

And the part about failing her can be viewed as true purely on the objective level despite not being reasonable. He did not pick up on the fades as fast as he could have, so the oaths are OK there too.

[karaddin]

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

We don't see her weaves. But it is quick and immediate in effect. I think the Login scene was done that way for effect. 

Yeah that's the simpler explanation

[The Anti-Targ]

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm missing Siuan here though. Someone else mentioned this, but they gave her training scene with Nynaeve to Liandrin, and had Liandrin push for Nynaeve's Accepted test rather than Siuan. We must assume, I suppose, that she's busy/traveling quite a lot, but it's a weird omission, given that she must at least be wondering wtf happened in Fal Dara. 

Plus the show wants to make people think that Liandrin might be hard, but she's not evil. And then the rug will be pulled. Though who will be the first black to be outed to viewers? Possibly Liandrin, but might be better to out Sheriam first?

I gotta say, it's been so long since I read the pre-Sanderson books, and I've only read them once, that it's very hard to be able to identify departures.

Edited September 5, 2023 by The Anti-Targ

[Gertrude]

Sheriam? I think that's much better saved for late game shock.

[karaddin]

Yeah Sheriam is a late reveal isn't she? Not just for Egwene but for the reader?

[Corvinus85]

It's interesting what they did with Mat being held prisoner, which was setup in season 1, as now Mat has a legitimate reason to distrust Aes Sedai and try to keep his distance from them as much as he can, including refusing healing and of course asking the Finn to help him in that regard. Still, I hope we still get his hero streak to do his best to rescue Egwene and the others whenever they're in trouble. And if they play it right, his coming about on Aes Sedai can be done through Teslyn, as is in the book though maybe with even greater meaning.

[Corvinus85]

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/the-wheel-of-time-interview-cast-rosamund-pike-season-2-changes

The title of this article is a bit misleading, but the interview implies Pike wasn't that enthralled with Moiraine being cut off from the Source.

Quote

“It's not what I signed up for,” Pike jokes to Inverse in an interview conducted before the SAG-AFTRA strikes. “One of the things that attracted me to the show was developing the [physical] language of channeling, and interpreting how you channel the elements of the universe. So the idea of Moiraine being cut off from that was problematic for me.”

 

[JGP]

23 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/the-wheel-of-time-interview-cast-rosamund-pike-season-2-changes

The title of this article is a bit misleading, but the interview implies Pike wasn't that enthralled with Moiraine being cut off from the Source.

 

Huh. For some reason I thought she had more pull than that.

[Maltaran]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah Sheriam is a late reveal isn't she? Not just for Egwene but for the reader?

Sheriam isn’t confirmed as black until after Verin’s visit to Egwene (although it’s very strongly implied when Aran’gar arrives)

[IFR]

I watched the three available episodes of season 2. I actually agree with most here that it was an improvement on season 1. The fact that the show at this point has essentially nothing to do with the books has really helped separate the two in my mind. The experience of the show is like if someone had read the books, and then ten years later tried to recap their vague memory of the events to a friend, and that friend decided to write a show based on that recap.

I found it comical how absolutely useless Mat, Rand, Perrin, and Lan are in the show. They really are these incompetent, gormless entities that need a woman to show them the proper way.

Spoiler

I honestly think the writers should pull the ultimate twist and kill Rand off at the end of the season. It's clear they really want to, so Nynaeve and Egwene can truly shine. The message can be that prophecy means nothing when confronted with women of strong will. Nynaeve has repeatedly demonstrated that she is more powerful than Rand with the One Power, is stronger and more intelligent, and far more capable. All Rand does is sulk and get effortlessly manipulated.

Anyway, I also liked the Accepted trials. I found it extremely amusing that two novices were allowed to just wander down there and openly channel the One Power at the ter'angreal. I guess no one noticed this? The Aes Sedai really are falling apart. It was also pretty hilarious that - as people have already mentioned - Nynaeve unequivocally failed her trials, but that's irrelevant because she's so powerful that she just needed to do her anime scream and then the exit appeared for her.

 

[Corvinus85]

39 minutes ago, IFR said:

I watched the three available episodes of season 2. I actually agree with most here that it was an improvement on season 1. The fact that the show at this point has essentially nothing to do with the books has really helped separate the two in my mind. The experience of the show is like if someone had read the books, and then ten years later tried to recap their vague memory of the events to a friend, and that friend decided to write a show based on that recap.

I found it comical how absolutely useless Mat, Rand, Perrin, and Lan are in the show. They really are these incompetent, gormless entities that need a woman to show them the proper way.

  Hide contents

I honestly think the writers should pull the ultimate twist and kill Rand off at the end of the season. It's clear they really want to, so Nynaeve and Egwene can truly shine. The message can be that prophecy means nothing when confronted with women of strong will. Nynaeve has repeatedly demonstrated that she is more powerful than Rand with the One Power, is stronger and more intelligent, and far more capable. All Rand does is sulk and get effortlessly manipulated.

Anyway, I also liked the Accepted trials. I found it extremely amusing that two novices were allowed to just wander down there and openly channel the One Power at the ter'angreal. I guess no one noticed this? The Aes Sedai really are falling apart. It was also pretty hilarious that - as people have already mentioned - Nynaeve unequivocally failed her trials, but that's irrelevant because she's so powerful that she just needed to do her anime scream and then the exit appeared for her.

 

I think you were going for some sort of satire, right?  I do agree with you about the current characterization of the boys, less so Lan, which is funny as the books had the ongoing theme of women believing they know best and more often that not that being true, while the show just powered with that showing that women are more capable and know best.

Spoiler

I briefly thought about why no one came calling when Egwene attempted to channel in the arch, but then recalled 2 things: 1) the arches are somewhere in the bowels of the Tower, so not many people around and 2) channeling happens constantly in the Tower, so it's difficult to point where a certain channeling comes from, nor can anyone know what someone is channeling without seeing the weaves.

 

[Poobah]

52 minutes ago, IFR said:

I found it comical how absolutely useless Mat, Rand, Perrin, and Lan are in the show. They really are these incompetent, gormless entities that need a woman to show them the proper way.

Perrin hasn't really done much yet but Mat was working on his own escape behind Liandrin's back and pretty much taking the piss out of her the whole time; Rand's definitely being manipulated by "Selene" but also has plans and a mind of his own - is using her too - and has been successful in his goal of securing access to Logain; and Lan fought multiple Myrddraal simultaneously - yeah he's being treated like shit by Moiraine but that's broadly book accurate and he's not incompetent and is far less passive than he is in the books, pushing back far more against her bullshit.

[IFR]

39 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think you were going for some sort of satire, right?  I do agree with you about the current characterization of the boys, less so Lan, which is funny as the books had the ongoing theme of women believing they know best and more often that not that being true, while the show just powered with that showing that women are more capable and know best.

  Hide contents

I briefly thought about why no one came calling when Egwene attempted to channel in the arch, but then recalled 2 things: 1) the arches are somewhere in the bowels of the Tower, so not many people around and 2) channeling happens constantly in the Tower, so it's difficult to point where a certain channeling comes from, nor can anyone know what someone is channeling without seeing the weaves.

 

I consider the show a satire, and that's how I'm experiencing it. I consider it akin to the Starship Troopers adaptation - a cheesefest that is straight up mocking the source material. Viewing it through this filter makes the show infinitely more enjoyable.

Spoiler

I cannot recall if this was the case in the books, but they're just leaving a valuable and mysterious artifact easily accessible to anyone in the Tower like that? That seems insane to me. What if three Aes Sedai engaged in an unsanctioned Accepted trial for a favored novice. What if Egwene and Elayne decided they didn't want to be novices at some point in the future, recruited other novices, and channeled the Arches open? Who knows what the show intends for the women who were denied the Accepted status and were cast away. In books many of them had incredible Talents and became quite skilled in their own way. If they gained entrace to the Tower, it would be a simple matter of wandering down and just going through the ritual themselves.

 

22 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Perrin hasn't really done much yet but Mat was working on his own escape behind Liandrin's back and pretty much taking the piss out of her the whole time; Rand's definitely being manipulated by "Selene" but also has plans and a mind of his own - is using her too - and has been successful in his goal of securing access to Logain; and Lan fought multiple Myrddraal simultaneously - yeah he's being treated like shit by Moiraine but that's broadly book accurate and he's not incompetent and is far less passive than he is in the books, pushing back far more against her bullshit.

I very much disagree with you. I think show Lan is nothing like book Lan. The actor is good and does his best, but show Lan is this pathetic, whiny shadow who shows none of the spine or strength of book Lan.

Spoiler

Mat was being played like a buffoon by Min and Liandrin.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by IFR

[fionwe1987]

11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Plus the show wants to make people think that Liandrin might be hard, but she's not evil. And then the rug will be pulled. Though who will be the first black to be outed to viewers? Possibly Liandrin, but might be better to out Sheriam first?

Revealing Sheriam any earlier than after Egwene gets captured doesn't work too well, IMO. 

11 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Sheriam? I think that's much better saved for late game shock.

Yep. It should feel like the betrayal of trust it is. In the books, Sheriam was almost part of the hunt for the Dragon Reborn, and Moiraine has a hard time convincing Siuan that it is too risky to include her. They were that close to giving the game away based on unearned trust. 

As for the show: I think this season shines compared to Rings of Power, in having a coherent narrative, interesting characters and less wasted money and potential. I also feel they're doing better than the Witcher, at this point. Again, these are not particularly high standards to me, but the first season did far worse in comparison.

Edited September 5, 2023 by fionwe1987