Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[Corvinus85]

59 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

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I cannot recall if this was the case in the books, but they're just leaving a valuable and mysterious artifact easily accessible to anyone in the Tower like that? That seems insane to me. What if three Aes Sedai engaged in an unsanctioned Accepted trial for a favored novice. What if Egwene and Elayne decided they didn't want to be novices at some point in the future, recruited other novices, and channeled the Arches open? Who knows what the show intends for the women who were denied the Accepted status and were cast away. In books many of them had incredible Talents and became quite skilled in their own way. If they gained entrace to the Tower, it would be a simple matter of wandering down and just going through the ritual themselves.

 

It was pretty much the case in the book. Padan Fain retrieves his dagger from the Tower vaults and only has to kill a novice that stumbled upon him, though Alviarin also stumbles upon him, but she is BA.

Though now that I think about it, Aes Sedai do tend to place wards in the more sensitive areas, so you have a point about the arches. Wards should have been placed in the chamber whenever they're not in use, and those wards should be done by the Mistress of Novices and/or the Amyrlin so no rogue AS can go about doing what you suggested. 

[Gigei]

Just finished ep 3. I've enjoyed it so far, but it hasn't been that great. Unfortunately, none of the cast has captured my interest much.

• I'm confused why Lan was so badly nerfed. How are we supposed to believe this is the same guy that kills one of the greatest Forsaken in a straight 1vs1 sword fight?
• Would have preferred it if Nyn's last test was her walking away from an absolutely perfect married with kids life, instead of running away from trollocs.
• Greatly looking forward to more Aiel presence. Fingers crossed it will be good.
• Also can't wait for Nyn to learn healing.

 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

It was pretty much the case in the book. Padan Fain retrieves his dagger from the Tower vaults and only has to kill a novice that stumbled upon him, though Alviarin also stumbles upon him, but she is BA.

Though now that I think about it, Aes Sedai do tend to place wards in the more sensitive areas, so you have a point about the arches. Wards should have been placed in the chamber whenever they're not in use, and those wards should be done by the Mistress of Novices and/or the Amyrlin so no rogue AS can go about doing what you suggested. 

The lack of security around the Accepted ter'angreal is pretty par for the course. The Oath Rod, surely an even more important artifact in the Aes Sedai hierarchy, was also very badly protected. And we see various Ads Sedai be disciplined for borrowing and keeping angreal and ter'angreal, which is what prompts the Tower under Elaida to gard the ter'angreal, and have them counted day and night.

Accepted are also known to have had accidents with unsupervised ter'angreal use. It isn't that wild that Egwene manages access. They'd have declared a day of mourning after Nynaeve's "death" anyway, and I doubt anyone would remark on her absence from the Novices quarters.

Beyond that, the weaves to activate the Accepted ter'angreal require multiple women, usually, and are too complex for a Novice to manage. It's not exactly an easy tool to misuse, and it is not at all easy to move, so the idea of posting security for it all night long, for thousands of years, truly does sound preposterous.

 

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Gigei said:

• I'm confused why Lan was so badly nerfed. How are we supposed to believe this is the same guy that kills one of the greatest Forsaken in a straight 1vs1 sword fight?

Because no one struggled to believe this after reading about Lan struggling to fight off two Myrdraal in Eye of the World, or one Darkfriend in New Spring? If they have Lan defeat Demanded next episode instead of in the final season, we should definitely revisit this criticism though.

2 hours ago, Gigei said:

• Would have preferred it if Nyn's last test was her walking away from an absolutely perfect married with kids life, instead of running away from trollocs.

The fundamental difference from the books seems to be that the tests here seem designed to show the Novice how ignoring their duties won't pay off, in the long run, whereas the books show the tests truly testing if they want to be in the Tower more than the ties that bind them to the outside world, and the fears that hold them back.

It does seem of a piece with the other changes to the Aes Sedai, though. They are less competent than in the books, sometimes, but also less full of bluster. This was the case early in the books, too, though, so maybe they'll just go the other way with Egwene's tests, consistency be damned.

If they do follow Nynaeve's test format, though, it would kind of make Egwene's tests with Rand bizarre. 

2 hours ago, Gigei said:

• Also can't wait for Nyn to learn healing.

 

She knows it already. She just hasn't consciously used it, except during that Logain scene. I liked the scene with the Accepted, though. That shared inclination with the Yellows is something they will hopefully develop soon, as we begin to see Nynaeve as an Accepted. 

[IFR]

41 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

The lack of security around the Accepted ter'angreal is pretty par for the course. The Oath Rod, surely an even more important artifact in the Aes Sedai hierarchy, was also very badly protected. And we see various Ads Sedai be disciplined for borrowing and keeping angreal and ter'angreal, which is what prompts the Tower under Elaida to gard the ter'angreal, and have them counted day and night.

Accepted are also known to have had accidents with unsupervised ter'angreal use. It isn't that wild that Egwene manages access. They'd have declared a day of mourning after Nynaeve's "death" anyway, and I doubt anyone would remark on her absence from the Novices quarters.

We'll see if this lack of security is followed up in the show. I doubt it will be - the nature of the writing in this show is to ignore virtually all practicalities consequent to the changes made and instead demand the audience not think too closely about how events occur.

41 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Beyond that, the weaves to activate the Accepted ter'angreal require multiple women, usually, and are too complex for a Novice to manage. It's not exactly an easy tool to misuse, and it is not at all easy to move, so the idea of posting security for it all night long, for thousands of years, truly does sound preposterous.

I think you're reaching here. It may not be an easy tool to misuse, but there are clearly several individuals who are capable of doing so. To not take precautions with this knowledge is itself preposterous. Furthermore, while the loss of Novices and Accepted is not a complete devastation to the Aes Sedai organization, it is made obvious in the show that it is something the Aes Sedai take strong measures to avoid unless absolutely necessary.

As for what's too complex for novices to weave, Nynaeve has repeatedly shown that just raging out is often a solution if you're powerful enough. Egwene and Elayne aren't as powerful as Nynaeve, but they are extremely powerful, and whether they meet the threshold requirement to fumble their way into miraculous accomplishments should be an open question.

But the conversation is kind of moot. The writing of this show is more the shut up and enjoy it sort, and we give the writers too much credit by engaging in any kind of discussion on the nuances.

Edited September 5, 2023 by IFR

[Corvinus85]

27 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Because no one struggled to believe this after reading about Lan struggling to fight off two Myrdraal in Eye of the World, or one Darkfriend in New Spring? If they have Lan defeat Demanded next episode instead of in the final season, we should definitely revisit this criticism though.

You mean his buddy who was a better swordsman but was overconfident? Lan fights off 6 men in an earlier scene in that book.

[IFR]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

You mean his buddy who was a better swordsman but was overconfident? Lan fights off 6 men in an earlier scene in that book.

Right, and in the show Nynaeve is effortlessly killing Trollocs left and right, and a severed and lightly armed Moiraine is murdering Fades. The martial abilities of Lan do not seem particularly remarkable contextualized in the show. He's occasionally competent, but often not. I sincerely expect a scene later in the show where Nynaeve defeats him in combat in some way.

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Gigei said:

Would have preferred it if Nyn's last test was her walking away from an absolutely perfect married with kids life, instead of running away from trollocs.

For me, Nyneave's tests were more cohesive in the show. They all work to give her the reason she needs to stay and train in the Tower - she can't protect those she loves otherwise. Sure, she failed the test as understood by the Aes Sedai, but she did emerge in the end, so that's a win. She Kobayashi Maru'd the arches. I saw her burst of channeling at the end willing the arches into being unconsciously. If we think the arches have something to do with T'A'R, then what she did feels like using need. 

Like I said, in the show, she's struggling to figure out why she there. In the books she's already determined because Fuck You Moiraine, but that's not a great reason and the show gives her this story that feels more cohesive and natural to me.

Also regarding Lan - apparently according to an interview with Henney, there were supposed to be 4 fades in that fight. Doesn't mean they didn't change it in editing or that they executed it well at all (they didn't), but at least that was the original intention.

[Myrddin]

I was hesitant to come see the forum reactions, because I really enjoyed these three episodes. While not perfect, I've come to terms that this is another telling of the Wheel and am letting myself enjoy the ride.

I even let myself go along with the misdirection in Nynaeve's test where she left the tower. The way the show shuffles storylines, I expected them to just speed run her and Lan getting married/bonded. Glad they kept N where she should be, though.

A few pages back, someone mentioned that the Hunt for the Horn should be more front and center. I agree. My wife is still not even sure why Fain took it and why Perrin's party are chasing it. Selene's explanation helped, but it still needed more somehow.

One thing I noticed about these three episodes is a lot is happening. Characters and plots aren't dragging like last season. It's a good sign as we're nearing the halfway point in a season compression two very dense books. 

 

[SpaceChampion]

Forgive me for posting an ad, but Arby's is hopping on the WOT train:

Still hard to see this becoming as big a cultural phenomenom as GOT.  I'd kind of like it to eclipse Rings of Power though, and make Amazon realize they bet on a loser with that.

[Myrddin]

The curly fry was not the beginning. It was a beginning.

[SpaceChampion]

Regarding Moiraine's storyline.  It makes sense if they're going to kill off Siuan, to have Moiraine take up her plotlines from the books.  They have to cannibalize someone's plotline for Rosamund Pike, and better Siuan than Cadsuane.

Edited September 5, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[SpaceChampion]

6 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

The curly fry was not the beginning. It was a beginning.

ketchup calls ketchup.

[DaveSumm]

Wait Season 2 has started? I haven’t seen a single piece of marketing for it … huh. 

[Corvinus85]

How come none of the episodes have a proper intro sequence? Are they not doing one anymore? I thought season 1's was quite good with the visuals and the music, even if it too Aes Sedai focused. Though it fit with much of the season.

And I haven't looked to see if there are any new animated shorts. The ones that accompanied season 1 were good. 

[Gertrude]

I'm guessing that omitting the opening allows them to squeeze another minute of screen time since Amazon has things like metrics and algorithms that they stupidly won't deviate from. If that's the reason, I'm fine with it. I liked the opening, but I like seeing more show more.

[Wouter]

49 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Also regarding Lan - apparently according to an interview with Henney, there were supposed to be 4 fades in that fight. Doesn't mean they didn't change it in editing or that they executed it well at all (they didn't), but at least that was the original intention.

Lan seems to have killed 2 of the Fades (one by decapitation), Thomas also one so either Moiraine only wounded hers or there were supposed to be 4 after all. I liked it that Moiraine got a shot at the Fade because she anticipated its movements and even used its powers against it (luring it to that spot). She still would have died without Lan and the others.

36 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

A few pages back, someone mentioned that the Hunt for the Horn should be more front and center. I agree. My wife is still not even sure why Fain took it and why Perrin's party are chasing it. Selene's explanation helped, but it still needed more somehow.

 

One thing I noticed about these three episodes is a lot is happening. Characters and plots aren't dragging like last season. It's a good sign as we're nearing the halfway point in a season compression two very dense books. 

 

Yes, the episodes have a good pace and the atmosphere is suitably like it was in the books (The great hunt and the dragon reborn, as the season is a mix of both though mostly the former).

As for the horn, indeed a shame that the Shienaran part was quite short so far and while we will of course still see them, things may look very different now.

Selene's explanation wasn't the strongest writing though, as the hunt is actually called in Illian - with Cairhien merely being one of many places where it is repeated - and the poorest folk are not particularly likely to go "hunting" either. Especially if no one is providing them with food. So, very unconvincing explanation. By the way, the older noblewoman who talked with Rand is apparently Moiraine's sister.

[Gertrude]

I agree that the explanation for the Hunt is not explained well so far. I do kind of like how they folded in the Cairhien disdain for the peasants into it though. Not executed well, but I like the thought.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

How come none of the episodes have a proper intro sequence? Are they not doing one anymore? I thought season 1's was quite good with the visuals and the music, even if it too Aes Sedai focused. Though it fit with much of the season.

And I haven't looked to see if there are any new animated shorts. The ones that accompanied season 1 were good. 

I liked the intro sequence for Season 1, but the title music was underwhelming. Game of Thrones or His Dark Materials it was not, so I'd assume not a lot of people watched the title sequence. I assume they just decided to skip past it.

[Gertrude]

We were speaking about Liandrin and if it would be revealed she was black and my brain just put something in place for me. I don't think she will be unmasked to anyone (aside from the audience). The girls will learn of Perrin's plight through a letter - something we've seen Liandrin can access. Who's to say she can't alter it before delivery? Give a very dire plea from Perrin and perhaps include Mat in the mix. She could put just enough information in their way to let them think they could use the waygates outside Tar Valon - they've seen Moiraine use it, Nyneave even opened it under duress. I'm not sure how the communication would work with the sul-dam, but this just popped into my head as a very plausible situation and explains why they went out of their way to have Liandrin reading letters to Mat.