Rings of Power: A New Thread to Rule them All

[Werthead]

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

by the way , I've got a question. I've never read the books , so I don't know when exactly the story is set in... what is the show going to be about? is it suppose to end with Sauran's first demise and Issildour taking the ring? is it then?

Pretty much, although a lot happens between now and then, to put it mildly.

There's a good point in that we need to clarify spoiler policy. The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales are obscure (in terms of sales) compared to LotR and we now have a good half a dozen or so people in the thread saying they haven't read the books and presumably want to avoid spoilers, so we need to take that into consideration when discussing stuff from the books here.

[Ser Drewy]

Interesting thoughts from Michael Drout, "Please Don't Make a Tolkien Cinematic Universe"

[Argonath Diver]

I'm not sure if everyone agrees, as having two concurrent threads can stifle good conversations. Perhaps if the plot starts setting up bigger cliffhangers that our book experts are aware of, perhaps a Not Read thread would gain traction? If nothing else, it'd likely be a bit fresher place for more casual viewers to discuss the show, and allow the main thread to really analyze the show vs Tolkien's writings.

I don't mind reading both newcomers and veterans in one thread, but once the plot(s) really get moving, sometimes it works better to separate themes to two threads.

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

Interesting thoughts from Michael Drout, "Please Don't Make a Tolkien Cinematic Universe"

I forgot that anecdote from Carpenter about Tolkien's reaction to the children's play. 

I have to say I agree with much of what Drout says. That said, I don't think he'll be heeded, alas.

As to a spoiler free thread for non-readers, sure, makes sense to have one for those who really want to talk about it with others who are similarly unfamiliar with the source material.

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

don't believe for a moment that the backlash is purely a function of Tolkien puritanism.

Of course it’s not. It’s years of frustration over exchanging competent and compelling storytelling, dialogue, direction, costume and character design for computer generated visuals and the appearance of being political (because everybody can tell that Rings of Power only appears to be inclusive and representative on the surface for marketing purposes and isn’t actually all that representative or inclusive), over exchanging effort, care and skill for budget.

This is what happened to Star Wars, this is what happened to Game of Thrones (among other things), this is what’s allegedly happening to MCU (I don’t follow that franchise) and 90% of anything semi-successful that streaming platforms produce or put their hands on. 

The whole politics issue is like 10% of the problem but everybody acts like it’s the full cake. It’s just one slice. And so is Tolkien Puritanism. It’s all the little things combined and piling up that piss people off and then they all pick one slice to project their rage and malice (etc) into. 

- in my opinion, that nobody asked. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just caught the 6 min two part clip of Galadriel’s intro… wow… they skip over… an awful lot about what actually happened to the Two Trees and how the Noldor (not “the Elves”) ended up going from Valinor in two huge groups that were… rather put out with each other to Beleriand… in Middle-Earth.  Did Amazon not buy the right to say “Beleriand”?  I think it is mentioned in the Appendices… isn’t it?

[SeanF]

36 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

Interesting thoughts from Michael Drout, "Please Don't Make a Tolkien Cinematic Universe"

It is an interesting article.  The author sums up the morality of LOTR, but I'm also mindful of Tom Shippey's comment that Tolkien "bowdlerised" LOTR.  In a sense, Tolkien admitted this in his introduction, by saying that in a real world setting, the Ring would certainly have been used against Sauron.

Reading the Appendices, and the Silmarillion, I get a sense that this was the unexpurgated version of Middle Earth's history, a world every bit as cruel and ruthless as our own.  The War of the Dwarves and Orcs, for example, was genocidal on both sides.    Nobody really disputes that the servants of Sauron or the Witch King should be put to the sword upon sight.  

So, while a series set in the Second Age should avoid glorifying cruelty, it would be quite in order to portray it, IMHO.  

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Just caught the 6 min two part clip of Galadriel’s intro… wow… they skip over… an awful lot about what actually happened to the Two Trees and how the Noldor (not “the Elves”) ended up going from Valinor in two huge groups that were… rather put out with each other to Beleriand… in Middle-Earth.  Did Amazon not buy the right to say “Beleriand”?  I think it is mentioned in the Appendices… isn’t it?

"Beleriand" is mentioned nine times in the text of Lotr: Once during the Council of Elrond, once by Frodo in Shelob's Lair, once in Appendix A (where it is mentioned that Lindon is what remains of it), thrice in Appendix E, and again thrice in Appendix F (where it is mentioned to have been drowned "after the overthrow of the Dark Power").

The way I see if they could get the permission for Numenor's shape from the Estate, they could have gotten it for Beleriand. I guess they did not want to confuse the casual viewer.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

19 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Of course it’s not. It’s years of frustration over exchanging competent and compelling storytelling, dialogue, direction, costume and character design for computer generated visuals and the appearance of being political (because everybody can tell that Rings of Power only appears to be inclusive and representative on the surface for marketing purposes and isn’t actually all that representative or inclusive), over exchanging effort, care and skill for budget.

They could tell all that from pictures of a black dwarf princess and a woman wearing armor? That was clever of them. 

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

So, while a series set in the Second Age should avoid glorifying cruelty, it would be quite in order to portray it, IMHO.  

Sadly, there are people who can't tell the difference. 

 

[Raja]

10 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I tend to think we need relearn that early Internet adage: don’t feed the troll. I

What happens when people say racist stuff to actors of colour that are on the show? Ignore that too? Pretend that these things don't affect people and actors? It is very easy to say 'pay no attention' - but to me, comments like yours are unhelpful given that this stuff is in the long line of things that people of colour are consistently facing in these big tentpole franchises - this stiff upper lip stuff that you're preaching here only comes from people that are not on the receiving end of racism, or other forms of bigotry.

 

[Raja]

Yes to a spoiler free thread, basically this thread has become a little unreadable for me given spoilers etc - was the same thing with the Dune thread

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

Interesting thoughts from Michael Drout, "Please Don't Make a Tolkien Cinematic Universe"

Not that I think it matters, It's interesting to speculate what Tolkien would think of Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy considering:

-A trilogy of films and not a single film, (which is probably what Tolkien was being pitched at the time).

-With a director who was determined to be faithful to the text. Jackson would have likely brought Tolkien on as an advisor if he was still alive.

-With cinematic qualities which were not possible in Tolkien's lifetime. Not even close. 

 

[Raja]

Also, 2 episodes in, I'm certainly more interested than I was after one episode. I still think galadriel is the weakest part of the show, but hopefully that will change when she has more interesting things to do.

[DaveSumm]

8 minutes ago, Raja said:

What happens when people say racist stuff to actors of colour that are on the show? Ignore that too? Pretend that these things don't affect people and actors? It is very easy to say 'pay no attention' - but to me, comments like yours are unhelpful given that this stuff is in the long line of things that people of colour are consistently facing in these big tentpole franchises

I think this a very real, but separate issue of dealing with abuse online. It’s totally unacceptable that they experience that, but I don’t see how giving it oxygen solves anything. I’m not sure what the alternative to ignoring it is, outside of what social media companies can do to prevent these things.

[Raja]

Just now, DaveSumm said:

I think this a very real, but separate issue of dealing with abuse online. It’s totally unacceptable that they experience that, but I don’t see how giving it oxygen solves anything. I’m not sure what the alternative to ignoring it is, outside of what social media companies can do to prevent these things.

Alright cool. Let's all stop talking about it and it'll go away. Let's stop writing about it, or as you say 'give it oxygen' - it's not like things like this have affected a significant number of people of colour in *multiple* franchises.

Knew there was something we hadn't thought of re: bigotry

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Galadriel accepting Frodo's offer of the One Ring has always been one of my favourite counterfactuals.  It offers her and her people a complete get out of jail card.

Consider her predicament, once the Ring is found.  She's barred from going West.  If Sauron regains the Ring, she can expect an eternity of torment at his hands.  If the Ring is destroyed, she and Lorien will fade. With the Ring, she can avenge the deaths of her family at Sauron's hands and preserve Lorien and her own immortality.  

That has to be one hell of a temptation.

But she knew then she'd have to BE Sauron, and who in right mind would choose that!  She was smart,  perhaps the only authentically smartest person in the room.  

It would be like choosing to BE rump45 except even worse!

[Ran]

22 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Not that I think it matters, It's interesting to speculate what Tolkien would think of Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy considering:

 

He would have hated it on many levels, even if he might have admired isolated elements like bits of the score or the recreation of Hobbiton and so on..

CT detested PJ's films, and he seems the best possible proxy for JRRT's own views.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

There is clearly something else going on here.

[Some large, loud portion of] fans are fascist?  It feels as though they are ruining at least genre entertainment -- I must be given what I want the book/adaptation/film/show to be/ because I am the smartest person in the room, and I get to have what I want because I am right -- and if it isn't what I want, I'll destroy it for everybody else -- and the thing itself even, even the people who made it, from writers to directors to the actors.  It's terrifying where we are in These Times.  And you can't ignore them, for they will not be ignored.

Though this doesn't seem to happen in, say, mysteries and crime fictions, either as original works -- books getting pulled by publishers -- or in adaptations for the screen, of which they are a mainstay and always have been.0

[williamjm]

I think the first two episodes were not bad but not exceptional. It does frequently look spectacular, I particularly liked Khazad-Dum. However, so far I'm not finding the plot to be particularly compelling although there's enough there that I'm willing to give it more time to really get going. I like Morfydd Clark's performance as Galadriel, but the sea journey was the weakest part of the second episode. In terms of characterisation I think Elrond meeting the Durins was probably the best scene so far, that and the Harfoots do provide a break from the portentous dialogue of most of the rest of the show.

3 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

There is no way in hell a 39% viewer score on RT reflects the quality of what I watched last night; or that it's just a matter of fidelity to the source.

For comparison, the Shannara Chronicles has a viewer score of 80% and I'd question how anyone could think that was the better show.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But she knew then she'd have to BE Sauron, and who in right mind would choose that!  She was smart,  perhaps the only authentically smartest person in the room.  

It would be like choosing to BE rump45 except even worse!

If the alternatives were being tormented by Sauron for millennia, or fading until I became a ghost, separated from my family and the rest of my kind, becoming Sauron would not seem like such a bad option.

I don’t think that Galadriel knew she’d be permitted to return West, until after she had rejected the Ring.  The Valar might very well have said, “Thanks, but Mandos has spoken.”