[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

They can throw together as many SLAY QWEEN! scenes with Rhaenyra as they want, she is still spoiled trash on the verge of losing her mind. 

It does become pretty awkward, given that the term "slay Qween" is taken quite literally in Westeros.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well Rhaenyra is already a nut job in the show. She skirts her studies, is rude and entitled, yet demands a throne she herself is not willing to put the effort into proving she is worthy of. 

They can throw together as many SLAY QWEEN! scenes with Rhaenyra as they want, she is still spoiled trash on the verge of losing her mind. 

I feel "teenage girl" and "nut job" are being equated here. Rhaenyra hasn't grown into the role yet.

[butterweedstrover]

35 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel "teenage girl" and "nut job" are being equated here. Rhaenyra hasn't grown into the role yet.

Nor will she. 

Alicent is emotional stable and yet is called the nut job. From what we have seen of Rhaenyra she is bordering on dillusional in how she views the throne as hers by right and yet shows zero interest in ruling. 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nor will she. 

Alicent is emotional stable and yet is called the nut job. From what we have seen of Rhaenyra she is bordering on dillusional in how she views the throne as hers by right and yet shows zero interest in ruling. 

Alicent is clearly not emotionally stable in the show. She has a nervous tick and she is presumably developing the delusion that Rhaenyra will murder her children.

So far Rhaenyra seems to be view the Iron Throne as anything but her right ... rather she fears her father just used her as a placeholder to push her unstable uncle out, intending to replace her now with her half-brother.

She might end up developing the notion that the throne is 'hers by right' ... but I doubt that the show will (or can) depict such a notion convincingly since they made it pretty clear that nobody in Westeros actually thinks anyone could ever think a woman could ever sit the Iron Throne.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nor will she. 

Alicent is emotional stable and yet is called the nut job. From what we have seen of Rhaenyra she is bordering on dillusional in how she views the throne as hers by right and yet shows zero interest in ruling. 

1. Alicent isn't a nutjob yet but has been involved in a direct plot against Rhaenyra and her father while still trying to gaslight the former into believing they can still be friends.

2. It IS hers by right as she's been made the heir. As for interest in ruling, every attempt to involve herself in ruling has been overruled by Otto Hightower because he DOESNT want her to rule.

I use the term gaslighting because both Hightowers keep trying to convince Rhaenyra they're not enemies while actively working against her.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Apparently, this episode got 16 million viewers on streaming over the first three days. Which is... good, I guess?

[C.T. Phipps]

35 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Apparently, this episode got 16 million viewers on streaming over the first three days. Which is... good, I guess?

I mean, it is definitely views and shows exactly what people are paying directly HBO for.

But to give a comparison, Obi-Wan's finale reached 1.8 million and it was a huge success.

https://deadline.com/2022/06/obi-wan-kenobi-finale-doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-disney-viewership-1235052985/

Edited September 11, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nor will she. 

Alicent is emotional stable and yet is called the nut job. From what we have seen of Rhaenyra she is bordering on dillusional in how she views the throne as hers by right and yet shows zero interest in ruling.

Yeesh.  Neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra as of yet are being depicted as emotionally unstable.  Alicent has been depicted as having a nervous tick because she's under extraordinary pressure from her father.  Whereas Rhaenyra is acting like any 17 year old - male or female - would likely act.  Impetuous, rebellious, and yes pretty bratty and entitled due to the pressure being placed upon her.  It's refreshing they're both being portrayed as three dimensional fully understandable humans considering their circumstances.

[frenin]

10 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

From what we have seen of Rhaenyra she is bordering on dillusional in how she views the throne as hers by right and yet shows zero interest in ruling. 

The throne is hers, she's the heir apparent.

I do not believe that Alicent is a nut job tho. That's way to harsh for what we've seen so far.

And i know that online audience always want perfect balance and whatnot but people realy should stop equating inmaturity with craziness. They are not interchangeable.

[C.T. Phipps]

As the heir, I am curious who DOES have the right if not her?

 

[EggBlue]

18 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

As the heir, I am curious who DOES have the right if not her?

 

it seems the Westerosi are expected to be after modern democracy , otherwise they are counted as selfish bastards !

 

now in all seriousness , I've never understood the argument of people who see book Rhaenyra as bad as Aegon II for fighting in the war and see her right to the throne as vicious entitlement . I mean , this is Westeros for god's sake , like it or not lineage rights exist ( correct the wording please, if it's incorrect ) . the same way in the main series we feel like Starks have a right to Winterfell and we see Theon and Ramsay as villains, Rhaenyra has a right to her father's seat which is the Iron Throne . how defending her right and honoring her father's wishes is entitlement of a pampered princess , I do not know..

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

it seems the Westerosi are expected to be after modern democracy , otherwise they are counted as selfish bastards !

now in all seriousness , I've never understood the argument of people who see book Rhaenyra as bad as Aegon II for fighting in the war and see her right to the throne as vicious entitlement . I mean , this is Westeros for god's sake , like it or not lineage rights exist ( correct the wording please, if it's incorrect ) . the same way in the main series we feel like Starks have a right to Winterfell and we see Theon and Ramsay as villains, Rhaenyra has a right to her father's seat which is the Iron Throne . how defending her right and honoring her father's wishes is entitlement of a pampered princess , I do not know..

Its not a terribly sympathetic motive taken on the macro level.

After all, it only affects Rhaenyra while a war affects tens of thousands.

But it becomes a lot more sympathetic when it's clear Aemond and Aegon plan to kill her family.

[frenin]

12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Its not a terribly sympathetic motive taken on the macro level.

After all, it only affects Rhaenyra while a war affects tens of thousands.

But it becomes a lot more sympathetic when it's clear Aemond and Aegon plan to kill her family.

There's no war in Westeros that it's truly sympathetic on the macro level. 

Westeros would have been best served if Robb Stark and Jon Arryn kissed the ring, even if that ring was tyranny, instead of kickstar massive civil wars.

In the case of Baelon, well Jaeharys is a dick but at least he's clearly the best suited for the task so there's that, but Aegon is a worse version of Robert, Cole is a worse version of Jaime and Aemond is a Aemond.

There's being flawed and there is being just bad.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

There's no war in Westeros that it's truly sympathetic on the macro level. 

Westeros would have been best served if Robb Stark and Jon Arryn kissed the ring, even if that ring was tyranny, instead of kickstar massive civil wars.

In the case of Baelon, well Jaeharys is a dick but at least he's clearly the best suited for the task so there's that, but Aegon is a worse version of Robert, Cole is a worse version of Jaime and Aemond is a Aemond.

There's being flawed and there is being just bad.

There are (I think) three just wars, in the eyes of most modern readers;-

1. The war in Slavers Bay

2.  The war against the Boltons

3.  The war against the Others.

But, political leaders in Westeros would disagree.

Edit:  Albeit, there are vociferous minorities who will stick up for Ghiscari slavers and/or Bowen the Hero and Janos the Martyr.

Edited September 11, 2022 by SeanF

[RhaenysBee]

I fully understand why Rhaenyra is being a brat, and that anybody in her place would be. My issue with her is that badass moments with her dragon or killing boars (which really wouldn’t have worked without Criston Cole) doesn’t make her a likable person or a more capable ruler than Viserys. She either needs to hit rock bottom to start growing soon, or she needs to care about something or someone enough that it brings out some natural humility in her. Because watching a bratty protagonist be bratty and badass gets very boring, very quickly. And thus far Alicent 100% outclasses her as strong female character. 
 

[butterweedstrover]

11 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeesh.  Neither Alicent nor Rhaenyra as of yet are being depicted as emotionally unstable.  Alicent has been depicted as having a nervous tick because she's under extraordinary pressure from her father.  Whereas Rhaenyra is acting like any 17 year old - male or female - would likely act.  Impetuous, rebellious, and yes pretty bratty and entitled due to the pressure being placed upon her.  It's refreshing they're both being portrayed as three dimensional fully understandable humans considering their circumstances.

 

13 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. Alicent isn't a nutjob yet but has been involved in a direct plot against Rhaenyra and her father while still trying to gaslight the former into believing they can still be friends.

2. It IS hers by right as she's been made the heir. As for interest in ruling, every attempt to involve herself in ruling has been overruled by Otto Hightower because he DOESNT want her to rule.

I use the term gaslighting because both Hightowers keep trying to convince Rhaenyra they're not enemies while actively working against her.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Alicent is clearly not emotionally stable in the show. She has a nervous tick and she is presumably developing the delusion that Rhaenyra will murder her children.

So far Rhaenyra seems to be view the Iron Throne as anything but her right ... rather she fears her father just used her as a placeholder to push her unstable uncle out, intending to replace her now with her half-brother.

She might end up developing the notion that the throne is 'hers by right' ... but I doubt that the show will (or can) depict such a notion convincingly since they made it pretty clear that nobody in Westeros actually thinks anyone could ever think a woman could ever sit the Iron Throne.

Oh wow, a lot of people here seem to be very bias towards Rhaenyra. She was not the heir apparent before Aemma died and still felt scorned as if the only way for her existence to be noticed is if she were made heir, as if making her the center of attention was the only way a father can show love for his daughter. 

And when she does become heir the title can always be removed in favor of the eldest son. And yet she does nothing to strengthen her claim, she acts like a bitch to the nobility with not a shred of diplomacy and her one claim to fame was using the sexual tensions with her uncle to win (a skill not very helpful in ruling a kingdom). 

She skirts her duties and studies and dreams of running off, going on escapades with her boy toy. And yet rather than claim she doesn't want the throne she wants both the throne and to be free from expectations and marry for love (and have a male side piece). 

Alicent tries to keep the peace between her father and Rhaenyra whereas all Rhaenyra does is act like a bitch. And that's how she rules too, under the expectations that everyone must desire her or be burned alive. She raises bastards because she doesn't care about the rules. Alicent tries to make nice with her, to be dutiful to both her father and her king, but Rhaenyra is dedicate to screw it up. 

Because she expects everyone to bow when she ascends to the throne. If you dedicate your life to making enemies you can't be surprise when they don't want you in power. Going up to a conversation and saying: 'what are you doing for the realm Lady Redwyne, eating cake?" and then leaving like it was a mic-drop moment may win points on twitter but it's just a sign of what a pathetic spoiled brat she is.   

 

And yet people really think she has a "claim" to something she does nothing to fight for. And blaming Otto is pathetic. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it seems the Westerosi are expected to be after modern democracy , otherwise they are counted as selfish bastards !

 

It's not "modern democracy" to expect a future leader to gain respect and work to win support rather than antagonize potential allies and act like a bossy brat. 

No monarchy would function with heirs who did not do their due diligence or try to strengthen their claim and shore up support. No functioning monarchy in history functioned because the heir thought of themselves as the rightful ruler and expected everyone to accept that no matter their behavior. 

That is not how Rome worked. If you lose support or act shitty you get knifed. That is not how medieval Europe worked either. No king or Queen had an automatic shield that prevented others from wanting them removed when they couldn't play by the rules. 

The reason people like you defend Rhaenyra is not because of historical accuracy, it is because of the power fantasy of her being Daenerys 2.0 and the symbolism of Targaryen loyalty as well as the magical pretense of her bloodline. Everyone must bow before the Dragon queen or else that is slight against the style and symbolism she evokes. 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[The Bard of Banefort]

My grandparents, who are in their 80s, mentioned watching this show the other day. They are both GOT fans. My grandmother doesn’t like HOTD, and my grandfather (who’s read all the books) doesn’t seem to either, but he’s hoping it’ll pick up. They didn’t say anything beyond that, but I thought I’d share the anecdote, since I don’t know anyone else who’s watched HOTD.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh wow, a lot of people here seem to be very bias towards Rhaenyra. She was not the heir apparent before Aemma died and still felt scorned as if the only way for her existence to be noticed is if she were made heir, as if making her the center of attention was the only way a father can show love for his daughter. 

Go watch the show. She didn't want to be heir and was surprised when her father called her down, shared his fantasy tale with her, and revealed he would name her heir.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

And when she does become heir the title can always be removed in favor of the eldest son. And yet she does nothing to strengthen her claim, she acts like a bitch to the nobility with not a shred of diplomacy and her one claim to fame was using the sexual tensions with her uncle to win (a skill not very helpful in ruling a kingdom).

LOL, she used her dragon and her niece-uncle bond to settle this, not 'sexual tension'. Once her father has a son - which happened two years before episode 3 - she (somewhat correctly, somewhat falsely) concluded that her father wanting to marry her off was part of his preparation to name Aegon his heir. And she feels pissed and exploited there because, apparently, her father just used her as placeholder until he had a son. At this point she has no intention to rule as queen, doesn't even expect it to happen. Very much like Daemon she wants the recognition and love of her father, not power.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

She skirts her duties and studies and dreams of running off, going on escapades with her boy toy. And yet rather than claim she doesn't want the throne she wants both the throne and to be free from expectations and marry for love (and have a male side piece).

Does she now? In the TV show I watched she neither has a boy toy so far nor did she run away with him. Criston Cole rode after her.

Viserys clearly failed to properly communicate why he thinks she should make a match. Privately he talks about finding a proper king consort for Rhaenyra ... but apparently not in talks with her or else she would have viewed Jason Lannister differently.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Alicent tries to keep the peace between her father and Rhaenyra whereas all Rhaenyra does is act like a bitch. And that's how she rules too, under the expectations that everyone must desire her or be burned alive. She raises bastards because she doesn't care about the rules. Alicent tries to make nice with her, to be dutiful to both her father and her king, but Rhaenyra is dedicate to screw it up.

So far Alicent tries to be nice. We have to wait and see how this continues. Neither in the book nor the show is there any indication that Rhaenyra wants to be desired or burn folks alive. How the sons thing goes in the show, but one imagines that this was not about 'defying the rules' both in the book and the show.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Because she expects everyone to bow when she ascends to the throne. If you dedicate your life to making enemies you can't be surprise when they don't want you in power. Going up to a conversation and saying: 'what are you doing for the realm Lady Redwyne, eating cake?" and then leaving like it was a mic-drop moment may win points on twitter but it's just a sign of what a pathetic spoiled brat she is.   

That wasn't all that smart, but it is Lady Redwyne who acts like a warmonger here, trying to draw King Viserys into a war he doesn't want ... presumably for her own selfish reasons, to have more wine profits so she can buy more cakes to feed her dog.

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

And yet people really think she has a "claim" to something she does nothing to fight for. And blaming Otto is pathetic. 

LOL, continue to watch the show. One imagines she ends up fighting for it or else there would be no Dance of the Dragons.

Both book and show will have Otto and Alicent stage a coup to crown Aegon, so the blame for the shit that happens is on them, not Rhaenyra.

[zajaz]

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It's not "modern democracy" to expect a future leader to gain respect and work to win support rather than antagonize potential allies and act like a bossy brat. 

No monarchy would function with heirs who did not do their due diligence or try to strengthen their claim and shore up support. No functioning monarchy in history functioned because the heir thought of themselves as the rightful ruler and expected everyone to accept that no matter their behavior. 

That is not how Rome worked. If you lose support or act shitty you get knifed. That is not how medieval Europe worked either. No king or Queen had an automatic shield that prevented others from wanting them removed when they couldn't play by the rules. 

The reason people like you defend Rhaenyra is not because of historical accuracy, it is because of the power fantasy of her being Daenerys 2.0 and the symbolism of Targaryen loyalty as well as the magical pretense of her bloodline. Everyone must bow before the Dragon queen or else that is slight against the style and symbolism she evokes. 

 

You know, that reminds of Richard II, who got deposed mostly because he got drunk on his own majesty and antagonized his noble lords. So you are right that, even in Medieval England, being a king didn't mean that you could act as a tyrant towards "the noble sinews of your power", to quote Shakespeare.

Edited September 11, 2022 by zajaz