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[Spoilers] Rings of Power: Adar, can you hear me?


Ser Drewy
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1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Except that they have brought up death and mortality. The differing cultural views of the passage of time has been discussed multiple times so far in the series.

Where? That short scene with Durin and Elrond in the elevator? That was well, short, and the show clearly potrays Durin's anger as overblown.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

This particular scene was about establishing the character of Show-Pharazon, together with fleshing out the role of the Guilds in Numenoren society. These are the interest groups that will propel Pharazon to the throne later. 

Fair enough. Though I the fear of Elves taking ordinary jobs still does not make any sense. It would have made sense if Numenor started its colonial ventures if there was the looming prospect of jobs being exported to Middle-earth and/or cheap labor coming from ME to Numenor.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Time-compression makes perfect sense in the context. It means you actually give your mortal characters arcs.

They could have had arcs for mortal characters without time compression. They just needed one major time jump between the Forging of the Rings/War of the Elves and Sauron and Pharazôn's usurpation/Fall of Numenor/War of the Last Alliance.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Not sure what you have against Kemen.

a.) It's incomplete. There needs to be -dur, -dil, -ion, etc. at the end

b.) It's Elvish. Why did the quendiphobe Pharazôn give his son an elvish name when he himself does not even have one?

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Calling her Miriel keeps things simple.

We are supposed to think that she is putting on an act to play to people's quendiphobia out of fear of being overthrown like her father. Why is she using an elvish name if her situation appears that volatile?

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The buoyancy thing is supposed to be poetic. Do you really want a lecture on the weight of the water displaced?

No, I just do not want any dumb line like that. It is hardly the only one. One would think that someone who is only 1/4 Noldo and 2/4 Teler would not say such dumb things.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

hus far the series has a very sound grasp of Tolkien's themes - far better than Jackson. Time and change, evil as corruption, Providence, Imperialism, and so on.

Not really no. Again the show clearly portrays Durin's anger is being overblown, providence is being reduced to "the sea is always right", and the imperialism is done by the wrong group.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Properly secretive Dwarves

Secretive for dumb reasons.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

and Orcs that can actually fight.

Have we watched the same show? The orcs in this travestry can not even find a single boy and cannot hit people standing out in the open.

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

We're dealing with a show sufficiently clever that it uses a nineteenth century painting of Empress Zenobia as the basis for Miriel's costume design...

`That is not evidence of cleverness. For all we know they could have found the picture on the internet and thought that it looked neat. Maybe the even read some wikipedia articles.

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4 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Alas, in this case I think The Rings of Power might have been too clever for its own good.

They may have been naive about how vitriolic a sect of the audience would be, i.e. that they would assume anything political in Numenor can be badged as wOke aGenDa pOliTiCs. We live in a post-fact world now. So it doesn't matter if they get stuff right, people will still label it as wrong. Or, perhaps they just thought 'haters gonna hate' and got on with it.

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

Miriel and co grant her respect because she's high elven nobility. That is not that complicated. Elendil showing her their super-secret documents... Yeah, that doesn't make much sense, so it's poor writing.

Elendil is very VERY obviously a long time fan of elves. He is one of the faithful and that means helping elves. He is doing what he thinks is right and also what he was told to do (mind Galadriel). It does make sense. It is not poor writing. Elves were also previously friends of Numenor so they would have known about much of the stuff in the lore hall already.

Edited by Isis
weird missing quote text issue
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4 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

We do not know that, because, as you said, Feaor died and Galadriel spends the rest of the 1st Age doing nothing of significance. She does not go after the sons of Feanor (righfully it would be so incredibly dumb she would not to be her show version to consider it) or Morgoth.

Neither Morgoth nor the sons of Feanor made the decision to attack the Teleri. In the show, Galadriel's motivation is the death of her dear brother at the hands of Sauron. So her lack of interest in expanding her vengeance to people not responsive for the cause of her anger is irrelevant to the discussion.

And we do know that was her intent. The text explicitly says so.

4 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

It is like promising to work out more and then when you find that the gym has closed down first you just drop the whole and spend the rest of the year on your couch watching Netflix

Ahh, this seems more true to Galadriel's character indeed. Making promises and being too lazy to deliver. I was wrong. Amazon should have hired you to give us Authentic Galadriel. :rolleyes:

4 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Granted Galadriel did perceive in the early 2nd Age that Sauron had not been vanquished, but she did not go a vengeance driven hunt for him, she build alliances.

In some versions of the story, sure. 

4 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

They are changes to the character. Actions inform characters. Tolkien's Galadriel never went on a thousand year single minded all-consuming vengeance quest where she lost her ability to speak with people without insulting them. You trying to say that she might have gone, is questionable and ignores the actual reality.

It is not questionable, it is directly from the text which you ignore only because you're determined to prove every decision taken by the show is stupid. When you think Galadriel giving up on a promise to chill on the couch watching Netflix is more realistic than the show version, you've reached "rabid hater" territory. Congrats. 

4 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

 

 

1 hour ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

`That is not evidence of cleverness. For all we know they could have found the picture on the internet and thought that it looked neat. Maybe the even read some wikipedia articles.

Ah yes. Any evidence of cleverness is to be fought against. Anything remotely clever in the show is chance. Anything mildly silly is the stupidest thing ever. Anytime the text supports the shows interpretation of a character, said text will be ignored. 

Edited by fionwe1987
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54 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Neither Morgoth nor the sons of Feanor made the decision to attack the Teleri. [...]

The sons joined in the killing and Morgoth killed Finwe and started this whole thing. If she really were as vengeance obsessed as you think her to be than she would have gone after them too. Galadriel is simply not vengeance obsessed.

56 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ahh, this seems more true to Galadriel's character indeed. Making promises and being too lazy to deliver. I was wrong. Amazon should have hired you to give us Authentic Galadriel. :rolleyes:

Or maybe Galadriel is not vengeance obsessed. If she were than indeed her inactions during the First Age would be out of character.

57 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

In some versions of the story, sure. 

In the versions we have, yes. Galadriel single-mindedly pursuing Sauron for centuries has no basis in any text.

59 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is not questionable, it is directly from the text which you ignore only because you're determined to prove every decision taken by the show is stupid.

The quote hate NOTHING to do with Sauron. You just seem to think that her swearing vengeance and then letting it go when it leads nowhere is evidence of her swearing vengeance against a different target and then pursuing it past the point of reason.

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

When you think Galadriel giving up on a promise to chill on the couch watching Netflix is more realistic than the show version, you've reached "rabid hater" territory. Congrats. 

GALADRIEL NEVER SWORE ON OATH TO HUNT SAURON.

Yeah I am done with you.

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30 minutes ago, Isis said:

Fascinating piece from John Garth (author of The Worlds of JRR Tolkien) about the context of Numenor's creation - for anyone who is interested in that.

Tolkien's inspiration for Numenor

That was a great article.  But, it makes it more clear that "Elves will take our jobs" was a lazy analog.  Numenorians if anything would be Numenorian supremacists, we are the best, if we put you under our thumb, you should like it, because we're bringing you into our greatness.  We are so much better than anyone, including elves, that it's BS we can't be immortal, and f those punk elves anyway we'll show them, no one can keep us down... Numenorians as an elitist, imperial power convinced of their various divine rights and goodnesses is the parallel.  Not immigrants taking jobs.  I don't understand why anyone defends the show for doing something so lazy and obvious.

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36 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

The sons joined in the killing and Morgoth killed Finwe and started this whole thing. If she really were as vengeance obsessed as you think her to be than she would have gone after them too. Galadriel is simply not vengeance obsessed.

So we're now defining her as wanting only vengeance, on anyone and everyone remotely connected to the thing she's pissed about? Why not Eru, for creating Morgoth and Feanor? Why not Aule, for teaching Feanor the art of making gems, that beget the Silmarils? 

Shift goalposts all you want. The central fact remains. 

36 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Or maybe Galadriel is not vengeance obsessed. If she were than indeed her inactions during the First Age would be out of character.

Or, you know, the person she wants vengeance against was dead. 

36 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

In the versions we have, yes. Galadriel single-mindedly pursuing Sauron for centuries has no basis in any text.

You revert to this constantly. No one is claiming this. It's a convenient straw man to kick at when you're grasping at straws, I guess. 

36 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

The quote hate NOTHING to do with Sauron. You just seem to think that her swearing vengeance and then letting it go when it leads nowhere is evidence of her swearing vengeance against a different target and then pursuing it past the point of reason.

It doesn't "lead nowhere". The target of her vengeance perishes. If Sauron perishes in the show, and she is shown to continue to want vengeance, we'll talk. Till then, this is meaningless blather. 

36 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

GALADRIEL NEVER SWORE ON OATH TO HUNT SAURON.

An all caps straw man. Wonderful. Never said she did that in the books. It's like you're unable to hold in your head that, yes, the facts of the plot are different in the show. The characteristics of Galadriel that would support such a plot are not. 

36 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Yeah I am done with you.

Oh thank Varda. Promise? Goodbye. 

I hope you hold to your promises longer than the hypothetical Galadriel you conjured up, though. 

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30 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That was a great article.  But, it makes it more clear that "Elves will take our jobs" was a lazy analog.  Numenorians if anything would be Numenorian supremacists, we are the best, if we put you under our thumb, you should like it, because we're bringing you into our greatness.  We are so much better than anyone, including elves, that it's BS we can't be immortal, and f those punk elves anyway we'll show them, no one can keep us down... Numenorians as an elitist, imperial power convinced of their various divine rights and goodnesses is the parallel.  Not immigrants taking jobs.  I don't understand why anyone defends the show for doing something so lazy and obvious.

Ok let's look at our own world for parallels. The lovely Brits colonized many lands, including mine, India, with the stated belief that they were the superior men driven by divine destiny to bring civilization to the heathens (who ran the world's largest economy, but that's a story for another day). 

Are you implying that the colonial British, rather than being puffed up weasels with an insecurity complex the size of the Pacific, were a confident, self-assured people? That no xenophobia, racism and fear of the other drove them? That anti-immigrant sentiment would be alien to colonial Britain? 

If so, go read some actual history, and correct your romanticized notion that imperialism is a sign of societal self-confidence. Anyone thinking they have a divine right to rule and subjugate is delusional, will ignore facts, and find find any excuse, however lazy or stupid, to justify their actions. 

I'm not even a particular fan of that scene, but some of this "criticism" is based on such deluded views of colonialism that I'm beginning to come around to it. 

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13 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ok let's look at our own world for parallels. The lovely Brits colonized many lands, including mine, India, with the stated belief that they were the superior men driven by divine destiny to bring civilization to the heathens (who ran the world's largest economy, but that's a story for another day). 

Are you implying that the colonial British, rather than being puffed up weasels with an insecurity complex the size of the Pacific, were a confident, self-assured people? That no xenophobia, racism and fear of the other drove them? That anti-immigrant sentiment would be alien to colonial Britain? 

If so, go read some actual history, and correct your romanticized notion that imperialism is a sign of societal self-confidence. Anyone thinking they have a divine right to rule and subjugate is delusional, will ignore facts, and find find any excuse, however lazy or stupid, to justify their actions. 

I'm not even a particular fan of that scene, but some of this "criticism" is based on such deluded views of colonialism that I'm beginning to come around to it. 

Anti immigrant sentiment comes in many forms, usually that immigrants are 'less than'...which obviously wouldn't work in the story with magical, immortal elves who have better tech than Numenor.

Since I consider that the ROP writers were probably using [current] American anti immigration sentiment as the parallel, my comparisson was to American exceptionalism, not British colonialism.  As an American I feel pretty confident that my country is self confident, smug and imbued with a belief that we are the best and that whatever we do is done with the correct motives, even when facts don't support this.

Immortal magical elves taking the 'jobs' of humans was stupid and if people's personal politics can't admit this fact, then so be it.

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Anti immigrant sentiment comes in many forms, usually that immigrants are 'less than'...which obviously wouldn't work in the story with magical, immortal elves who have better tech than Numenor.

Ok, but one post before you said Numenoreans would think: "We are so much better than anyone, including elves, that it's BS we can't be immortal"

So which is it? If they do think the way you say, it's totally fine for them to look down on Elves, no?

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Since I consider that the ROP writers were probably using [current] American anti immigration sentiment as the parallel, my comparisson was to American exceptionalism, not British colonialism.  As an American I feel pretty confident that my country is self confident, smug and imbued with a belief that we are the best and that whatever we do is done with the correct motives, even when facts don't support this.

Only Americans see a big difference between American exceptionalism and British colonialism. As someone who lives every day with the excesses of the former and was born to the aftereffects of the latter, I can tell you that on the ground, things aren't/weren't very different. 

America simply doesn't choose direct rule to express it's colonial power. But express its power it surely does, and with very similar motives to imperial Britain. 

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Immortal magical elves taking the 'jobs' of humans was stupid and if people's personal politics can't admit this fact, then so be it.

If it proves that fear for their jobs is the only thing that drives Numenoreans to hate Elves in the show, I'd be with you. As one part of their attitudes to the world, it wholly makes sense. It is very much a factor in all fascist regimes, and Tolkien was hardly a stranger to it, nor was his world. 

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Gee whiz those stoopid wokeist ROP writers invoking that foney, ahistorical climate change in Queen of Numenor's vision of the ocean's incursion taking out their beautiful island.  Why are they ruining the fantasy that way? They just can't write or make stories, they just want to invoke contemporary lib politics.  (And the queen isn't even white either, see?)

Bye-the-bye, Tolkien must have heard and witnessed a great deal of anti-immigrant sentiment by Little Englanders particularly around both wars, particularly directed against the Catholic Polish refugees in his area.

 

Edited by Zorral
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On 9/15/2022 at 12:09 PM, Isis said:

I said it was a TV show because you referred to one of the performances as 'ok for a TV actor' or whatever. So my point was if he was just a TV actor then that should be ok, since it is just a TV show.

When we talked about acting performances and you couldn't accept any comparison between the Jackson films and ROP, I think you said we just could NOT compare them, ultimately. But now, you say that we should expect the same from ROP as we would from a film (?because money).

It does feels as if you are moving the goal posts all the time. The show can never succeed in your eyes, it can't do anything right because you keep comparing it to something else which you like better and then you go into subjective personal complaints, saying someone looks like a hairdresser from Essex. 

So in summary this is coming across as:

  • you are going to insult the appearance of the actors in the show
  • you don't like the show
  • you're not going to like the show, no matter what it does/doesn't do, as there will be something another show/film has done better

I have finally reached my limit of patience this week with:

  • right-wing trolls masquerading as Tolkien fans
  • book purist gatekeepers who are offended if anyone likes the show in a less intellectual way to them since this 'makes Tolkien so pedestrian'
  • and finally whatever brand of hate you are peddling here in this thread.

What overdramatic nonsense. The user you replied to was mildly criticizing the series, nothing more. Perfectly fine. Deal with it.

I don’t know if you work for Amazon or not but here is the thing: I don’t give two shits how close it is to Tolkien lore or not. I do care though about good story writing, character development, plot development, acting. And this show is at best mediocre in absolute terms which makes it a joke in relative terms: given the available resources. 

Maybe the first season is all set up and it will get better S2+ but sofar it’s not even close to „being good“. 

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Guys, the 'Elves are going to steal our jobs' plotline doesn't get better when you point out that Tolkien used immigration as a problem in other contexts.

There is nothing wrong with that kind of thing being used in the show (although not really in relation to jobs, rather in relation to losing power, being outbred, etc.).

They could have used it:

- with the Elves in Eriador realizing that the Men of Middle-earth will soon topple them as the dominant species/culture, making it part of the reason why Celebrimbor wants to create his Rings of Power.

- with Númenor if immigration was already a thing there and folks there were starting to get afraid that the Men of Middle-earth would eventually challenge them as rulers of the world of Man if they continued to treat them as equals (that could have set up the later policy of colonialism and slavery).

Where it just doesn't work is in connection with the Elves since the average Númenórean should be educated enough to understand what an Elf is - and revere/envy them for being closer to gods than to mortals due to their immortality and magic. That they view them as potential competitors for a job just makes no sense.

What comes next? King Haggard being reinvented as a horse breeder who takes out all the unicorns because he fears the competition?

In general:

Is it just me, or is the general plot very slow and there is little to no tensions? With the Elves/Dwarves there is literally nothing happening at all, and they constantly create fake tension with Elrond/Durin not getting along or there being some kind of evil secret being kept (which then turns out to be mithril). Star Guy has so far done nothing but push a cart. I so expected him to heal the injured pseudo-Hobbit, finally establishing that the guy can work some magic, but that's either not happening or has been pushed into the next episode.

Worst is their entire take on evil Sauron. Why not throw us into a world which is nearly a paradise, where people truly are living a blissful life nearly everywhere, outside 'the Southlands' were things are not that great and quickly turning to worse? Why making it a mystery who Sauron is rather than, you know, have nobody mention or think about him (outside the 'evil men'/Orcs circles, but even there one could go with a generic Dark Lord guy, implying that it may be Morgoth rather than Sauron) and show the Annatar guy who is such a nice guy that nobody actually ever expects him to be Sauron or a villain until much later?

By having Galadriel and others go on about Sauron all the time it is pretty clear he must be out there somewhere, meaning the audience is never going to be ensnared by him. The various 'Sauron in disguise' candidates are all just that - bad disguises, not people who could really ever play the role of Annatar - Star Guy aside, who might definitely be able to become that guy if he remembered who and what he was.

I mean, this whole story is not the story about the evil Dark Lord Sauron but another fall from grace, both for the Elves with the Rings of Power and later with the Númenóreans turning devil-worshippers. Sauron helps them with that, of course, he is the catalyst, but they all make their choices, and we truly should see that.

I'm also kind of at a loss why they invented new Númenórean characters but cut Elendil's father Amandil and, so far, Anárion, although he at least was mentioned. Having a deeply believing Faithful character who ends up sailing into the West to no avail could have been a decent enough plotline - not to mention that they could have presented the gang there as a multi-generational family, mothers and grandmothers included.

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31 minutes ago, Vodalus said:

imagine travelling back in time and telling Tolkein that someday there would be an adaptation of his work that cost 1 billion dollars to make but included no horses except for one really weird part!

In fairness, the soundtrack suggests there'll be a big cavalry charge later on. 

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11 hours ago, Mithras said:

By the way, Theo's escape from the orcs felt like playing Shadow of Mordor, which was awesome :D

I do think there's been some influence from Shadows of Mordor on the show, in the ideas for the setting, presenting Mordor as a more varied landscape than just a blasted volcanic mess, Celebrimbor chilling etc.

If some of the orcs keep coming back with grudges against the main characters and get correspondingly more badass nicknames in the process, and then Shelob shows up as a hot woman, we'll know where they got the ideas from.

1 hour ago, Arakan said:

I don’t know if you work for Amazon or not but here is the thing: I don’t give two shits how close it is to Tolkien lore or not. I do care though about good story writing, character development, plot development, acting. And this show is at best mediocre in absolute terms which makes it a joke in relative terms: given the available resources. 

Calling people who see positives in the show shills for Amazon is, without any doubt, the stupidest, laziest, knee-jerk route of criticism absolutely possible, and far below the standards of debate I'd expect from here. Doing that to someone who has posted regularly on this board for over 15 years and is well-known for their Tolkien fandom credentials is really silly.

1 minute ago, Ser Drewy said:

In fairness, the soundtrack suggests there'll be a big cavalry charge later on. 

Well,

Spoiler

and the absolutely massive cavalry charge in the trailers we haven't seen in the show yet.

.

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I went back to a few scenes in episodes 1 and 3.

Sauron's sigil that appears on Finrod's body and on the stone has the middle prong of the trident much longer, whereas the drawing Galadriel finds in Numenor has the middle shorter because of course it needs represent Orodruin. At least in all instances there is a point there to show the mountain, but it kinda smacks of lazy writing to me.

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Possibly being stupid here but … it didn’t occur to me that anyone needs to be Sauron? Is there some lore that establishes he was masquerading as someone else around now?  I figured he was just off being evil somewhere. I mean Halbrand? Never got vibes from the Dark Lord that he might follow Galadriel around and put on a northern accent and give her some sass, meanwhile stealing people’s jewellery…

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8 hours ago, Werthead said:

Calling people who see positives in the show shills for Amazon is, without any doubt, the stupidest, laziest, knee-jerk route of criticism absolutely possible, and far below the standards of debate I'd expect from here.

I hope that calling people who see negatives in the show all kinds of labels is equally not okay because they sure can have valid thoughts and arguments about the show and knowledge of The Lore too. (I don’t mean myself, for the record, I don’t know jackshit about The Lore, I just dump my middling thoughts on you all, when I’m procrastinating. Like now. ) 

 

So a friend sent me some clips of scenes last night. The accents… :lol: I admire the cast and the voice coaches because speaking in a foreign accent must be hard work. It’s always a joy to watch in films and shows and one marvels at the voice acting talent of some actors. But anyway, that was… a choice. That Dwarves will have a Scottish accent and Harfoots an Irish one. 

 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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