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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
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5 minutes ago, nara said:

Didn’t the High Septon nab Loras Tyrell for it in GoT?

I think I've read that. In the books, and per GRRM, homosexuality in the Faith is at most a venal sin, and carries more of a social stigma (as seen by the various denigrating jibes about it) than it does a religious one. The Faith is not monolithic and opinions among septons may vary -- Septon Cellador was very troubled by Satin and his being Jon's squire, for example -- but that's the general idea George has.

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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Ah, I didn't at all see her questioning as being about her feelings/crush, but ... well, talking about Rhaenyra screwing around with her uncle was something that she, a pious and proper woman, would find difficult to discuss with anyone, much less a man, much less a man who is Rhaenyra's sworn protector.

Obviously you could view it in a number of different ways - another would be her being manipulative (which I think is an aspect of it as well) in having him sit down next to her to begin with.  But she's more delicate with him than she is with Rhaenyra last episode, and no I don't view that as her being uncomfortable in a pious way.  She's certainly come into her own the last few episodes, and her discussion with Larys earlier is much..sharper.

And if we're talking about glances/body language, her look of jealously immediately after Criston clarifies it was him who slept with Rhaenyra was apparent enough for me - as is her clearly being so upset/surprised once she knows it was Criston instead of Daemon (which she clearly was assuming).

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47 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

  Yeah, I don't see it either.

  

Who knows if he didn't try? It just obviously didn't work.

"it's not for the lack of trying" ... wasn't he talking about this?

 

 

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Yeah I didn't get the impression it'd be wildfire.  That sounds like a waste of wildfire even if they did have access to it.  I definitely assumed they could color the fire by some other, cheaper, means.

I hear green fire in Westeros my mind goes go wildfire! I'd forgotten about that day in chemistry class where they burned the magnesium and whatnot. 

10 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, I believe Daemon only decided to kill his wife in that moment.

People think Daemon is a planner and he's absolutely not.

The problem is I think we have to assume he didn't take his dragon, or it would be pretty clear he flew in, killed her and flew off. Then you have to ask why he would take a ship or whatever. Short of Caraxes recovering from a wound the only reason I can think of is he planned to sneak in and sneak out.

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So Rhea Royce, wife to a prince and heir to one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, hunts on her own? Seems plausible... 

And does Daemon has some sort of mind control ability for horses now? Rhea was supposed to be a great rider yet the horse threw her off without Daemon doing anything except look at her.

Criston's "Let's elope on another continent" speech to Rhaenyra was so absurd. But nowhere near as absurd as him confessing his capital offense to Alicent.

Viserys going on and on how "It is long time our Houses united in blood" when talking to Corlys and Rhaenys of all people was another facepalm moment. I kept expecting one of them to tell him "Our marriage already did this 30 years ago, what are you on about?".

But of course, all this is minor compared to the remarkably idiotic scene where Joffrey was murdered. This was peak Season 6-8 GOT. "Cool" scene that makes no sense whatsoever and the consequences of which will make even less sense.

 

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12 minutes ago, nara said:

Didn’t the High Septon nab Loras Tyrell for it in GoT?

Yes.

Though it should be noted that was D&D's invention.

BUT...

Given he's based on Salvanarola according to George R.R. Martin and Salvanarola was considered an enormous homophobe even by the standards of his time, it's not much of a leap.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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4 minutes ago, David Selig said:

So Rhea Royce, wife to a prince and heir to one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, hunts on her own? Seems plausible... 

Given how she treated Ser Gerold, I gather she is a misanthropic person who prefers being alone. Given that she's capable, I don't really see an issue of her riding around the vicinity of the castle. Not a smart idea, of course, to ride alone without need, especially if going into difficult terrain -- never know when you'll have an accident...

 

7 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Viserys going on and on how "It is long time our Houses united in blood" when talking to Corlys and Rhaenys of all people was another facepalm moment.

Ah, I'm glad you brought that up. I wonder if people just missed it.

Yeah, as I said way back after episode 2, the Targaryens do not consider themselves united with the Velaryons because of Rhaenys's marriage to Corlys -- a union in their mind has to entail a Velaryon being welcomed into the family and contributing their bloodline to the future Targaryen heirs.

Which, again, means that it's consistent with the claim in episode 2 from Laena that the last time the Targaryens had Velaryon blood was way back before the Doom, and the families have stayed separate since then. Which means some family tree changes.

 

5 minutes ago, David Selig said:

And does Daemon has some sort of mind control ability for horses now? Rhea was supposed to be a great rider yet the horse threw her off without Daemon doing anything except look at her.

The horse freaked out at being approached ominously and reached for. Honestly, I think the horse's reaction is probably supposed to indicate that it sensed something was off about Daemon. Because he was planning to kill its rider. 

I also think the fact that he appeared unarmed is also telling. It means he wanted to try and put her at ease, which means he wanted to be able approach her and get close. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Ah, I'm glad you brought that up. I wonder if people just missed it.

Definitely didn't miss it - and thought of you when he mentioned it!  Viserys mentions it again in his introductory speech right before Alicent's big entrance as well.  I still don't view it as confirmation.

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Again, I liked a lot. 

For the first time, I got a sense of Otto Hightower as a human being. His scene with Alicent conveyed a lot about both of them, which was necessary to understand Alicent’s character better. I really liked Alicent, I thought her reactions were founded, understandable and to me at least, pretty relatable. The acting was quite good. 

I enjoyed Laenor and Rhaenyra’s dynamic, it was sweet and the mutual respect and care showed in spite of the slightly clumsy dialogue (was that intentional? I couldn’t tell). Corlys was great and his conversation with Rhaenys was a highlight. It made them both human and two dimensional, which has been missing from previous episodes. Driftmark was stunning, especially the interior sets, though the beach shots were also lovely especially the grass ones with Laenor and Joffrey. 

The wedding set was once again beautiful. The arrival of the Velaryons was epic. The actress 100% pulled off Alicent’s power walk (the spectator comments were unnecessary, the scene perfectly conveyed what it needed to convey). The tension they were building throughout the wedding scene was sublime, I as a viewer felt the discomfort in the room, the acting was amazing on everybody’s part. 

BUT. 

That whole thing just falls apart when you try to contrive a climax to it that makes as little sense as this one did.

For crying out loud, it takes TWO people, TWO people to drag Criston off of that little git this Joffry person was. There were like 10 men around, in close proximity. Also, were is THE REST of the freaking King’s Guard? Aren’t there 6 more of them? Why aren’t they there at a royal wedding in full armor exactly to prevent something like this? Where’s the regular guard? How do you not break up something like this in minutes? Who the fuck tossed Laenor over the table? Cole? Because if he did, why didn’t someone slip in and drag the Joffrey person away, while Cole was busy with Laenor? the choreography of the scene is so terrible because they deliberately directed and shot the extras in a way that suggested a mass confrontation, which this wasn’t. And that begs the question of why didn’t anybody react like a functional human being would do? You have two functional human reactions when a king’s guard starts beating up a noble guest at a royal wedding: you flee the crowd to stay safe and let help get there, you try to break up the fight. You don’t stand around and cheer like it’s the bloody colosseum. 

Okay, Joffrey dies. Why isn’t Cole arrested or even executed on site? How does he get to that tree WITH HIS WEAPON? He just killed a noble guest at the royal wedding! He is a murderer and a liability to the safety of anybody in the Red Keep. Why is he alone at the tree and why does the queen just walk up to him? What fresh hell is this? 

and also yes, Viserys is sick, we get it, unless you mean to kill him in weeks (which you don’t because I know from the episode 6 stills I saw on Facebook that he makes the next time jump), there’s really no need to hand this fact out so heavily. We get it. 

As for Daemon… just how stupid is this dude? Why didn’t you kill that wife years ago and why didn’t you find a slightly less idiotic way? Also, did he fly there at daybreak and wait in case she rode that way? The woman opened her mouth once and you totally understood why Daemon didn’t go anywhere near her by the way. So as a viewer am I supposed to forgive Daemon for killing his insufferable wife so he may get his insufferable niece? Or am I supposed to feel disgusted and deeply sorry for this insufferable woman who was insufferable from the moment she opened her mouth the first time till the end of 3 minutes I knew her as a character? Seriously. I know it’s not a popular opinion, but mostly I’m just bored with Daemon. He is an overrated narcissistic baby, and as such a right match for Rhaenyra. 

I hated the hairstyles too. What are those updos? 

oh yeah it’s so weird that they changed the young Velaryon actors. Laena looked 10 and now she looks 25+ While Rhaenyra is still played by the same person. That’s what you get when you compress the timeline so. 

no, sorry, I’m still not done. I actually had an issue with the tension building too. It relied on characters figuring things we as an audience found out through two episodes’ worth of story by glances and looks. I’m not saying that Joffrey person and Daemon weren’t painfully obvious. But you can’t have the same character be so obvious in their body language and then walk up to Cole and talk to hiM about keeping secrets. What freaking secret, my friend, the entirely room read you like an open book. And sure, let’s say it’s in character for Joffrey and Daemon to be so obvious, where are the consequences? As for the rest of them, can we at least have someone, anyone, not know everything from looks? 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Laenor refusing to have sex with the heir to the throne has never seemed realistic to me.

Well, to be sure, in the book it is not clear whether it is Laenor refusing to have sex with Rhaenyra ... or Rhaenyra telling her 'husband' that he will never get so much as a glimpse between her legs.

I mean, the sources are in agreement that Rhaenyra really, really opposes this match and Viserys has to use his biggest gun on her to force her to go through with it ... so it is entirely conceivable that the Harwin thing is her way to take her revenge on the people who forced her into a marriage she never wanted.

In addition, there is Laenor's own grief over Joffrey's death, something that seemed to completely crush him during the wedding as such ... and afterwards they just don't live together. Rhaenyra loathed the entire thing from the start, but for Laenor this came at the cost of the life of a very close friend.

Both is more than enough to make this whole thing an utterly dysfunctional marriage.

 

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26 minutes ago, Ran said:

The horse freaked out at being approached ominously and reached for. Honestly, I think the horse's reaction is probably supposed to indicate that it sensed something was off about Daemon. Because he was planning to kill its rider. 

The problem was not the horse getting spooked or even throwing its experienced rider. Any horse can and will get spooked and any rider can be thrown. The problem is that a horse doesn’t fall flat on its back when it gets spooked. 

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49 minutes ago, David Selig said:

So Rhea Royce, wife to a prince and heir to one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, hunts on her own? Seems plausible... 

The entire scene is a joke, since horseless Daemon could not only know where the hell she would be but also, you know, outwalk her.

Their conversation definitely means Daemon hadn't returned to Runestone before, so he just magically popped into existence there.

The way to do this if they had felt to do it in this silly was to bring the dragon in. Have Caraxes spook the horse, and have a flying Daemon find his wife in the middle of nowhere.

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22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

This is the second episode thread in a row where Westerling gets dragged for his supposed lack of attractiveness. Come on, people, give the man some long overdue appreciation!

Heh.  I was just referring to his age, or at least the actor who plays him.  McTavish is 6 years older than Ifans (Otto) and 12 years older than Considine (Viserys).  I could only pray I'd look that good at 61.

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2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Guys like Columbus and Vasco da Gama navigated around the world and have seen many different peoples and queer customs, I'd hardly call them tolerant, even for their time standards.

Besides, it doesn't mean Corlys is intolerant or doesn't accept other people being gay, it's his son he has a myopic view of.

But Corlys is clearly not a greedy guy who explored the world to trade or conquer or subdue or colonize ... but to simply see the world, see what's behind the next horizon.

Such people are usually more openminded than others. As he shows in the book when he makes it clear that his grandsons are his grandsons, regardless who fathered them.

But as a I said - so far Corlys is written very badly in that regard. Not only have we yet to hear anything about his great voyages and why he undertook them ... but he just doesn't give the impression that he is a man with this kind of background.

Regarding Larys and Alicent:

Alicent's

Spoiler

divine feet

aside, it seems Larys feels kind of drawn to her because he views her as a fellow outsider at court. Why he would want to poison Alicent against Rhaenyra and not come up with a less destructive way to ingratiate himself with her I'm not sure. Could be he couldn't think of anything else, could be he thought she might be more receptive towards his advances/more dependent on him if she could need all the allies she might need.

Regardless how Larys feels about Harwin, I imagine that Larys views Harwin's future affair with Rhaenyra and their children as a weakness - emotional baggage one better does without (although that might in part be motivated by the simple fact that no woman would ever seriously consider him as her paramour).

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54 minutes ago, Ran said:

Ah, I'm glad you brought that up. I wonder if people just missed it.

Yeah, as I said way back after episode 2, the Targaryens do not consider themselves united with the Velaryons because of Rhaenys's marriage to Corlys -- a union in their mind has to entail a Velaryon being welcomed into the family and contributing their bloodline to the future Targaryen heirs.

Which, again, means that it's consistent with the claim in episode 2 from Laena that the last time the Targaryens had Velaryon blood was way back before the Doom, and the families have stayed separate since then. Which means some family tree changes.

I didn't miss it, but I thought it didn't make sense back then either.

Also, Corlys himself doesn't consider their houses untied due to his own marriage either, neither back in episode 2, nor in this one.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Corlys is clearly not a greedy guy who explored the world to trade or conquer or subdue or colonize ... but to simply see the world, see what's behind the next horizon.

Such people are usually more openminded than others. As he shows in the book when he makes it clear that his grandsons are his grandsons, regardless who fathered them.

Well, this seems to be putting on some rose-colored glasses IRT Corlys.  He traveled the world, yes, but he also became the richest man in Westeros based on those journeys.  That almost certainly entails some boot-stomping of such exotic places and cultures.  I agree he shouldn't be compared to Columbus or de Gama, but he's also clearly no saint.

All that aside, Corlys clearly IS very progressive by Westerosi standards, both in the books and the show.  However, I think your blind spot is assuming just because someone has a progressive view on homosexuality he still wouldn't be in denial about his own son.  It's fundamentally different.

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Since this show is set within the same universe as GOT, we can probably infer that homosexuality is considered abominable in Westeros. Like in many cultures, it’s probably something that’s hushed up rather than openly condemned though. 
 

For what it’s worth, Aeron is clearly ashamed of having been abused by Euron in the books, but whether that’s because of homosexuality, incest, or the loss of autonomy is hard to discern.

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