Arya, the Darkheart

[The Commentator]

Arya’s mental illness is what will put her in a mental health institution. You can forgive the crime if you want. I won’t. But at least admit that no society will allow Arya to be free.  Sure, medication and therapy will be prescribed. But she will be treated in an institution. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Arya’s mental illness is what will put her in a mental health institution. You can forgive the crime if you want. I won’t. But at least admit that no society will allow Arya to be free.  Sure, medication and therapy will be prescribed. But she will be treated in an institution. 

What is the westerosi equivalent of a mental institution? What qualifies one to go there & how do you know Arya will end up there? 

I highly doubt any medication or therapy will be prescribed, I've never seen anyone deal with any mental illness in Westeros. I would imagine most will forgive her for the crimes she has committed so far, as they aren't particularly heinous, nor are they without reason. Coupled with the trauma she has faced & her age, most will get it - you don't & some won't but most will. Regardless, she won't be treated for any mental illness. 

There actually is a society that will let her be free. She is literally free right now & probably will continue to be. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

[LongRider]

23 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

What is the westerosi equivalent of a mental institution? What qualifies one to go there & how do you know Arya will end up there? 

Well, there is the Quiet Isle, but is it in her future, most likely not.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

14 hours ago, LongRider said:

Well, there is the Quiet Isle, but is it in her future, most likely not.

That's not punishment.  Lock Arya in a cell and let the Silent Sisters  care for her with compassion until she leaves the world of the living.  It is confinement for life but she will be fed and cared for.

[LongRider]

14 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

That's not punishment.  Lock Arya in a cell and let the Silent Sisters  care for her with compassion until she leaves the world of the living.  It is confinement for life but she will be fed and cared for.

I wasn't thinking of punishment as the question I was answering was 

Quote

What is the westerosi equivalent of a mental institution? What qualifies one to go there & how do you know Arya will end up there?      Lyanna<3Rhaegar

The EB talks about how coming to the QI helped him and how it helps others, to heal from the trauma of war and other issues, what are known as Broken Men.  Septon Meribald says the same.  The EB mentions that women are welcome, but not for a long period of time.   Arya could use this type of milieu, but it won't happen.  She would meet her buddies Sandor and Stranger there tho.   

Edited December 17, 2022 by LongRider

[LongRider]

nvm

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by LongRider

[Rondo]

The Quiet Isle is similar to quiet retirement.  If that is Sandor then he did not get the punishment he deserved.  Micah's life had worth and Sandor took it.  Justice require punishment for Sandor.  I am not against a chance for redemption and rehabilitation but he needs to suffer punishment first.  The same for Arya Stark.  She needs to be forced to endure prolonged suffering to pay for the life of Dareon and the old man.  She can be released to the custody of the maesters after paying for the murders.  Her illness is not getting cured.  She needs containment.

[Brother Seamus]

for the record, this is a dumb debate. this is a fictional story, set in a fictional world. but saying Arya is insane is so obviously objectively wrong and misguided I'll spend a few minutes on it.

first, it is apparent she is not psychotic: dissociated from reality, hearing voices, suffering from hallucinations, unable to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, suffering from paranoid delusions, that kind of thing. no evidence of anything like that is in the books. so, according to the normal English-language meaning of insane, she is not insane.

Nor do I see her as being psychopathic or sociopathic, both of which involve a lack of empathy for others, psychopathy including pleasure in inflicting pain, sadism, etc., and neither of which is a diagnosis in 5th edition of the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (dsm-V). Arya seems perfectly capable of appreciating the pain, happiness, sadness,  joy, etc of others, and there is no indication she takes pleasure in others' suffering.

Does she suffer from a mental disorder that falls within the definition of something in the dsm-v? almost certainly. PTSD for sure. but this is subjective stuff. most of us can be said to suffer from emotional/mental disorders or syndromes, from time to time and to some degree. whether a formal diagnosis is justified is a matter of judgment.

would she be institutionalized under modern western standards? I doubt it, due to her age, and the fact that most of the violence she inflicted was in self-defense. depending on how her actions came to the attention of the criminal justice system, perhaps long-term mandatory counseling, but maybe not.

Arya is 9 when the story starts, around 12 at the end of dwd. she has been traumatized by horrific violence, and de-sensitized to that violence, and found herself in situations where her survival required her to use violence. the cases where she she didn't act in self-defense were committed after she she was horrifically traumatized, and then taken in and fed and protected by a bizarre death cult of assassins. Arya's capacity for violence is understandable if you follow her arc. the fact she has gotten to the point of being trained as an assassin and meting out justice to night watch deserters seems to her like reasonable behavior. to me this is perfectly reasonable, especially given her age.

I would suggest that, if you're looking for modern-day analogs, think of child soldiers, such as those in the various African wars, civil wars, insurrections, rebel and outlaw/gangster movements we've been reading about for the past few decades; e.g. Liberia, Congo, Sierra Leone, etc. no doubt some do become psychotic, others are surely crippled by ptsd, and many more have their moral compass permanently and seriously twisted up as a result of what has happened to them. But,those that have gotten away, especially to europe, the US and elsewhere have generally been treated as victims and cared for. I'm sure many are beyond help, but many have gone on to productive and normal lives.

So, that's from the modern real-world perspective, which of course is irrelevant to Arya, a fictional character in a fictional world roughly based on medieval Europe. she is set in a fictional society where violence and cruelty are much more acceptable and common, not unlike medieval europe and virtually the entire world for most of human history. while her capacity for violence is unusual in-world, due to her age, she is otherwise not outside the norm. she rightly burns with hatred and vengeance for numerous violent wrongs done to her, her family, and others. no one in-world would say she was unjustified in killing Raff, an act of vengeance, and all her other killings were in self-defense or in combat, other than Dareon and the insurance broker. the killing of dareon was justified and appropriate by in-world morals and rules because he was a night's watch deserter, even if she technically was not one granted authority to levy that penalty. only the assassination of the insurance broker is unjustified, but that is done at the direction of her caretakers, the faceless men, and thus excusable.

That said, what becomes of her in the story, personally and psychologically, is an interesting question. I hope it doesn't come as news to anyone that one of the themes and subjects of ASOIAF is the horror of war, and violence in general, and its disproportionate effect on the the common folk, the lower echelons of society. GRRM is a boomer, don't forget, a generation for whom Vietnam and the morality of war was a preoccupying and formative social issue.

So, will GRRM show us an adult Arya forever emotionally scarred and dsyfunctional as a result of the trauma she has suffered (and inflicted)? Will we see Arya find some kind of love and redemption and eventually return to a more normal and happy emotional life? will she be able to reintegrate into her family and larger society? We'll see. I have a suspicion that GRRM has some kind of warm feelings for Arya as a character and he will bring her back from the moral abyss and she'll find some form of happiness.

But that will be after she inflicts some horrific violence, motivated by revenge.

This is a rank guess, but I think that, after she inflicts some extraordinary vengeful violence, her vengeance will bring her some peace and satisfaction, but also that she will ultimately feel revulsion at what she's become, realize that killing people will never make her feel whole, that violence begets violence, and she'll turn back from going completely over the edge.

another observation: GRRM likes toying with the revenge trope. Revenge, in case you haven't noticed, is the driving force in lots of popular fictional media, especially movies. it's virtually a cliche movie formula for the bad guys to hurt the protagonist's family - especially children - to set off the narrative where the protagonist goes on a rampage of vengeful violence. it's a plot device to justify all kinds of entertaining carnage and virtually everyone accepts it.

one thing GRRM has done is have bad guys get their comeuppance from unexpected quarters, unrelated to their original crimes. Janos Slynt is executed by Jon for nothing related to his betrayal of Ned. Amory Lorch is killed by another psychotic sadist, Vargo Hoat, for sport and pleasure, not for his numerous crimes, such as the attach on Yoren and NW recruits. The mountain is (temporarily) killed in the duel with Oberyn, who is acting out of a desire for revenge for his sister and her children, not for any of the mountain's war crimes against the small folk of the Riverlands. Tywin is killed as a result of  emotional cruelty to his own son, not for his war crimes. And so on.

Arya's acts of violent revenge may be the ultimate pinnacle of this switcheroo. I'm thinking perhaps GRRM will want us to see her as a kind of avenging angel not just for her family but for thousands of others abused and injured and killed in this absurd and selfish war among the great and the mighty. the ironic twist will lie in the fact that she is a traumatized 12-13 year old girl, who, though the daughter of a great aristocratic family, has spent these 2-3-4 years at the very bottom of society, where she has seen up close how vulnerable the masses are to the violent whims of the elite. GRRM may want us to see Arya's revenge as the revenge of the meek on the mighty, when the meek have finally had enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Brother Seamus

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The Ghost of High Heart associates the tragic past of Summerhall to present day Arya Stark.  Wildfire was involved at Summerhall.  The woman saw an accurate vision of Arya's dark future.  Arya has a lot of blood on her hands.  She will soon be covered in many layers of blood.  Arya will commit a mass murder which will result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.  I have seen posted predictions of her methodology of choice.  I do not think Arya will employ poison.  She is too small to attack a crowd directly.  Arya will use Wildfire to commit mass murder.  It is impossible for Arya to ever be normal again.  The future for her is very, very dark.  And she will become the darkest, most evil, of the main characters. 

 

Arya is already the darkest of the main characters and the one who will commit an act of mass murder.  Poison is another of Arya's sinister tools and it is a weapon of the faceless.  Arya has already used poison to kill.  She poisoned the old man who sold insurance. Large colonies, settlements, and cities get their water from rivers and streams.  Poisoning the source will have a murder rate of one hundred percent of the population.  Arya can use a poison instead of the Wildfire to destroy King's Landing.  The money is on Wildfire though.  The GOHH clearly connected Arya to Wildfire. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by James Fenimore Cooper XXII

[Rondo]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:38 PM, Brother Seamus said:

Arya's acts of violent revenge may be the ultimate pinnacle of this switcheroo. I'm thinking perhaps GRRM will want us to see her as a kind of avenging angel not just for her family but for thousands of others abused and injured and killed in this absurd and selfish war among the great and the mighty. the ironic twist will lie in the fact that she is a traumatized 12-13 year old girl, who, though the daughter of a great aristocratic family, has spent these 2-3-4 years at the very bottom of society, where she has seen up close how vulnerable the masses are to the violent whims of the elite. GRRM may want us to see Arya's revenge as the revenge of the meek on the mighty, when the meek have finally had enough.

Arya is a violent vigilante suffering from mental illness.  I will acknowledge some of her victims were bad people.  Dareon and the Insurance seller were not in that company.  Arya is anything but meek.  She's a wild wolf with the violent temper of the Starks.  She's a loaded gun without a safety.  It's best to put her away in a confined institution.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:59 AM, Rondo said:

Arya is a violent vigilante suffering from mental illness.  I will acknowledge some of her victims were bad people.  Dareon and the Insurance seller were not in that company.  Arya is anything but meek.  She's a wild wolf with the violent temper of the Starks.  She's a loaded gun without a safety.  It's best to put her away in a confined institution.

Dareon was an accused rapist & deserter of the nights watch, not to mention he left Sam, Maester Aemon, Gilly & a newborn baby to starve. The insurance seller we only know what we were told which is that he WAS NOT a good person. I suppose it could be a lie, but I don't know why the FM would lie about it, either way, they both definitely are in that company. 

 

Seriously, I don't understand how you can say Arya is bad but those two aren't? 

The wild wolf blood has nothing to do with violence. It's said Lyanna had it too, what were her violent acts? 

Lastly, there is no confined institution for the mentally ill in Westeros. There is no institute capable of dealing with a child traumatized to the level Arya has been, so that's not happening either. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:12 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Who has said this? All people have been saying is that people should take into account she's a manipulated child when thinking of a punishment. Absolutely no-one has said Arya should receive no punishment. Please stop making things up.

She is a child, who while in a vulnerable situation, was manipulated and coerced into carrying out these acts! Why would you want to harm her like this? Where is the punishment for the greater villains, all the people who used her that way? Finally, how will this punishment help Arya to see the error of her ways or reintegrate into normal society? There is a reason why a lot of courts don't use punishments like this anymore. It is cruel and ineffective.

Dareon lost his life because Arya murdered him.  An old man who was not a threat lost his life.  Arya murdered him.  Suddenly you're worried about Arya's eye.  A slap on Arya's wrist is not enough.  

[Rondo]

50 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Dareon was an accused rapist & deserter of the nights watch, not to mention he left Sam, Maester Aemon, Gilly & a newborn baby to starve. The insurance seller we only know what we were told which is that he WAS NOT a good person. I suppose it could be a lie, but I don't know why the FM would lie about it, either way, they both definitely are in that company. 

 

Seriously, I don't understand how you can say Arya is bad but those two aren't? 

The wild wolf blood has nothing to do with violence. It's said Lyanna had it too, what were her violent acts? 

Lastly, there is no confined institution for the mentally ill in Westeros. There is no institute capable of dealing with a child traumatized to the level Arya has been, so that's not happening either. 

Dareon never deserved his time at the wall.  It was injustice.  The insurance seller may be guilty of what he was accused of but there is nothing to prove his guilt.  The city guards and the Sealord would have arrested him if he had engaged in corruption.  Arya never gave them a chance.  She just killed them.  She didn't give them a chance to give an explanation and present their side.  Therefore, it is not an execution in a legal sense.  They were murders.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

21 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Dareon never deserved his time at the wall.  It was injustice.  The insurance seller may be guilty of what he was accused of but there is nothing to prove his guilt.  The city guards and the Sealord would have arrested him if he had engaged in corruption.  Arya never gave them a chance.  She just killed them.  She didn't give them a chance to give an explanation and present their side.  Therefore, it is not an execution in a legal sense.  They were murders.  

How do you know Dareon never deserved his time at the wall? As far as I recall the only evidence we have is that he is at the wall for raping & (i think) said he didn't do it, but what rapist wouldn't say that?

There may be plenty to prove the insurance mans guilt, we just don't know about it. Regardless, she was given a mission to kill him by the crazy cult she has joined up with out of desperation. She wouldn't remain in their good graces very long if upon her first assassination she didn't follow through but rather stopped to hear his side of things. Not saying that would be a bad thing to do but the FM aren't going to like it, I'm sure. She has her own survival to think of & that should take priority over some scummy insurance man. 

You are stating things as if they were fact when we don't know. What we do know is that Dareon was sentenced to the wall for raping, whether or not he actually did it & we know he is a desserter of the NW & left his company to starve. That makes him a pretty sucky person, IMO. 

Yes, they are murders. I never said otherwise. My contention is that the people she killed were not good people either, which is what you said. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Here&#x27;s Looking At You, Kid said:

Dareon lost his life because Arya murdered him.  An old man who was not a threat lost his life.  Arya murdered him.  Suddenly you're worried about Arya's eye.  A slap on Arya's wrist is not enough.  

Dareon also is a convicted rapist, a desserter of the nights watch & left his company to starve after telling them he was going out to sing for their supper. The old man was a threat according to the FM. I think the better question is why do you have more compassion & worry for Dareon the rapist & the scummy insurance salesman than you do a traumatized little girl who is trying to survive? 

 

[Bowen Marsh]

@H Wadsworth Longfellow

This murderous little girl is what Lord Commander Snow betrayed the watch for.  What a tragic comedy. 

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

This murderous little girl is what Lord Commander Snow betrayed the watch for. 

What. Are. You. Taking. About.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

What. Are. You. Taking. About.

I'm fairly certain that's a bot account or something. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/17/2022 at 1:58 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

That's not punishment.  Lock Arya in a cell and let the Silent Sisters  care for her with compassion until she leaves the world of the living.  It is confinement for life but she will be fed and cared for.

I don’t mind for Arya to receive compassionate care as long as she is imprisoned. Lack of freedom is adequate punishment for her sins.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don’t mind for Arya to receive compassionate care as long as she is imprisoned. Lack of freedom is adequate punishment for her sins.  

What if she received care & was rehabilitated?