Experiences as a PhD student

[IFR]

Come this Fall, I will begin the long journey of working on my PhD. I'm excited, but also feel some trepidation as well. I've heard a few rather disquieting stories about the experience.

I'm interested in reading how it was for others here. Was it positive, negative? Any regrets? What is some advice you would give to neophytes?

[Zorral]

Don't angst over the dissertation.  Just do it, according to the guidelines of your program and advisors.  People get stuck on the dis, thinking they can't write well enough.  Don't. because writing well, being entertaining, is not one of the criteria.  People think they can 'marry' the academic with popular and then publish.  Nope.  Don't even think that.  Just do it as it is required.  If you want to publish a book of the material, you must start entirely over.

Speaking here as one who has watched dissertation catastrophe in the making over and over, as do all who are dissertation advisors, research advisors, etc.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Zorral

[IheartIheartTesla]

Typically a PhD would run about 5-6 years, and its hard to give advice encompassing its entirety. There is of course the initial honeymoon period filled with promise, the middle years slog, and the final grind where the end is in sight but also seemingly far away. I would suggest a couple of things when you are starting out though. In my time the first year typically involved coursework, some TA assistance and shopping around for a research project. It doesnt hurt to start thinking about what specific sub-topic you are interested in, and even coming up with a research problem to tackle. The alternative is to have your potential advisor suggest a PhD topic, and there will always be aspects of it that you wont like (its also more satisfying to cook up a project all by yourself).

The other piece of advice is that once you have identified a potential research group is to ask around about what the work culture is in that group. Keep in mind you'll be spending inordinate amounts of time with these cats for the next few years, and if the leadership is toxic or the workgroup dynamics are, then you'll be miserable for a large portion of your graduate career. My rule of thumb: too small a research group increases the risk of conflict because there are only a few people, too large a research group and there will invariably be conflict just from the number of interpersonal combinations. A group of ~8-10 is probably optimum (note that my experience is purely with experimental groups, theory ones are smaller by necessity)

[Zorral]

Also -- your advisor(s), for the program and the dissertation --  If they aren't meeting with you regularly and asking lots of questions and listening to you, get new ones.  Also if your institution's library has a research methods and advisement program, get to it immediately, to get advice on how and where to go about doing your research.

Get to know as many of your program's co-students as possible!

Drink lots of beer.

 

 

[DMC]

Congrats IFR!  It's good to be excited, and you should be.  In terms of advice, Zorral and IHT did a good job.  Based on your interests, I imagine the program you're entering is for the hard sciences, right?  In which case, I honestly don't know how much my advice would be worth.  I'd ask my dad, but trust me, that's a route you don't want to take.

I suppose what I'd emphasize first and foremost is don't be afraid to engage with and rely on your cohorts.  You all are going through the same thing at the same time in the same way.  Frankly most of my cohorts - as well as those a year or two under and above me - I wouldn't have been friends with otherwise.  Most political scientists are not who I usually hang out with.  But they are the only ones that will fully understand what you're going through, and not to get too Beatles on you, but we all need a little help from our friends.

Second, when you get to the diss phase of the program, do not be afraid to change your committee -- including the chair.  If things aren't working out in terms of progress on your work, don't be afraid if you think a change would be helpful.  I, necessarily, went through about three chairs throughout my program. 

Most of that is simply because the first two got better positions at other institutions, but at least with one it was because he and I did not see eye-to-eye on what my research was pursuing.  To the point it was impeding my progress, so rather late in the process I ditched him and found someone else.  It was a hard decision - particularly because he was/is a very big name my field - but sometimes personalities just don't match.

Third, and this touches on some of what IHT said, try to remain focused.  I imagine you will eventually have at least TA responsibilities for some of your years throughout the program, and even if you don't, being on fellowship is a very tempting way to get lazy. 

The latter is probably just a me problem, but I know even the most committed/ambitious can get distracted by side projects instead of maintaining focus on completing the diss and getting out of there.  Getting published is important.  But doing so for group projects at the expense of finishing on time can often be counterproductive.

[Ompog]

Plenty good advice here. You should be interested in your research topic, and be able to tolerate your supervisor, at the very least. Group culture is very important but can be difficult to assess from the outside. A lot depends on your field and country. If you don’t mind sharing, you could probably get some more targeted advice. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Congrats! I second most of the points already raised, especially about getting advice and support through your cohort.

I don't what the job market is looking like these days, but one thing I found when I was in grad school (2007-2012) was that my advisor and teachers really only had one-track minds: you need to get a tenure-track position. All well and good, but if you happen to want to know about other options to consider, they probably won't be able to help you. My advisor was open enough to the idea of it, but had nothing practical to offer. Everyone else in our program was like: "Why would you ever commit career suicide like that? Don't you take your work seriously?"

So I felt compelled to do some postdocs to stay competitive, but ultimately (particularly due to pressure from my wife who was sick of moving around), I decided to forgo the academic track and instead pursue research-related jobs for the US govt. But I had to learn about all of that stuff on my own, and I personally wish that I had known about such opportunities when I was still in grad school. So, I don't know what your goals are, or how fixed or flexible you want to be, but just know that you may have to explore alternative options independently, if you're curious.

I had a fantastic experience with my grad advisor, but I will say that the experience tends to be a bit of a coin flip, particularly at R1 universities. Most of my cohort peers changed advisors due to personality conflicts, and I ran into some real difficulties with my second postdoc PI. It's like getting a new roommate, who is also the landlord, and they're there for their research first and foremost, so sparkling personalities are not guaranteed. Just try to get a sense of what's good for you, especially by getting other people's perspectives, and determine if a lab and advisor are right for you.

Good luck! It's a really rewarding experience, so use that opportunity to its fullest!

[Starkess]

Oh fun! I just finished mine last year. While obviously there were rough spots and hard times, overall it was definitely positive for me. It was certainly far and away the best 5 years of my working life. A good fit with your advisor is absolutely crucial, judging from my experience and what I witnessed from others. And a good attitude and sticking to established boundaries definitely helps. I never noticed that the people putting in 12 hours days and working all weekend ever finished sooner or accomplished more than the ones doing reasonable hours...

Good luck!

[horangi]

Congratulations as well!  I will add that as the spouse of a PhD candidate, you might want to have a heart-to-heart with any partner you might have and let them know that they are now entering into a polygamous relationship with your degree program.  Our Friday nights have gone from happy hours and dinners out to picking them up from the lab at 7pm and discussing science on a whiteboard over wine at home before they crash hours before our child or I do.  Weekends are for errands, more time in the lab, and your partner providing you therapy or grief counseling when an experiment fails or a lab tech aliquots a reagent incorrectly which destroys the samples you've been developing for three months.  Overall, looking past all the frustration and tears, its an incredible experience and constantly challenges you to stay on the top of your game.  It has certainly kept us younger at mind.  (We do joke that I should be awarded the lower case "h" from their PhD.) 

Responding to @Starkess above, I've tried noting what you said in your last line to my better half, but the answer is always, 'but I am too curious about XYZ and it will bug me until I've seen the results!'  ...and there is always another XYZ around the bend.

[IFR]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Fortunately it's a smooth beginning. I get along really well with my advisor, who is an accomplished individual with lots of publications under their belt, and I have a pretty clear idea already what my research will be focused on. So on that front I feel secure.

Can't wait to join your ranks and hopefully further science in my own small way!

Edited May 26, 2023 by IFR

[Buckwheat]

On 5/23/2023 at 7:28 PM, IFR said:

What is some advice you would give to neophytes?

Speaking as somebody in the final stages of writing the dissertation and absolutely done and overwhelmed with the whole thing sometimes ... just don't. And I am only half joking. Or am I?

Seriously, it is exhausting, time consuming, and ... I don't know what field you are in, judging from most of the replies you are probably in some field where there is lots of group work, but for me, it was mostly a very lonely experience (researching in literary theory just has you sit long hours in the library without communicating much with anybody). A lot of that depends on whether you are employed by the university or you work in some other field and are doing the PhD on the side - in the latter case, your actual job that is what you are being paid for is going to take short-term priority all the time, making the work on your dissertation just something that you procrastinate with and it is going to hang over your head for years.

As everybody else said, good relationship with your advisor is important, time management is important, keeping your sanity is important but sometimes really hard.

Good luck with it all.

18 hours ago, Starkess said:

Oh fun! I just finished mine last year.

Congratulations!  

 

[Zorral]

Oddly, I found the Ph.D. work and program much more satisfying and and less exhausting than the grueling ordeal that was getting an M.A.  I was working during both, but the M.A. was teaching and I hated it.  The Ph.D. was information sciences and that librarian work meshed beautifully with the course work. They went together. My M.A. combo of history and literature -- didn't fit with teaching freshman English to kids who were illiterate in three languages simultaneously, particularly because I felt it was so important that they learn the skills to read and write, while they, for the most part, couldn't give a damn.

O ya, the other reason the M.A. was so grueling is -- history and literature combo.  Both demand a great deal of writing of papers, long papers, many papers, so much long, detailed reading -- and this is before thesis and examination.  I didn't sleep for three years, and was essentially insane when it came to anything that wasn't reading, writing and grading and lesson plans.

Information Sciences -- the emphasis here is on 'science' and this means well regulated and tested protocols and procedures followed pretty much around the world, and though we wrote, the emphasis was on brevity brevity brevity. Our professors by and large were practicing, professional librarians and directors of libraries, and they didn't want to wade through endless reiterations of what they already knew.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Zorral

[Ompog]

14 hours ago, IFR said:

Can't wait to join your ranks and hopefully further science in my own small way!

Sounds like you are well set up in terms of advisor. One additional point - as in a workplace, think carefully about shitting where you eat. It’s incredibly common, but if things go south then it can make your PhD a bit of a nightmare. Better to go looking in another lab, or better yet, another department. Or swear yourself to science with a monastic devotion. 

[mellyporter]

On 5/24/2023 at 4:16 AM, IheartIheartTesla said:

Typically a PhD would run about 5-6 years, and its hard to give advice encompassing its entirety. There is of course the initial honeymoon period filled with promise, the middle years slog, and the final grind where the end is in sight but also seemingly far away. I would suggest a couple of things when you are starting out though. In my time the first year typically involved coursework, some TA assistance and shopping around for a research project. It doesnt hurt to start thinking about what specific sub-topic you are interested in, and even coming up with a research problem to tackle. The alternative is to have your potential advisor suggest a PhD topic, and there will always be aspects of it that you wont like (its also more satisfying to cook up a project all by yourself).

The other piece of advice is that once you have identified a potential research group is to ask around about what the work culture is in that group. Keep in mind you'll be spending inordinate amounts of time with these cats for the next few years, and if the leadership is toxic or the workgroup dynamics are, then you'll be miserable for a large portion of your graduate career. My rule of thumb: too small a research group increases the risk of conflict because there are only a few people, too large a research group and there will invariably be conflict just from the number of interpersonal combinations. A group of ~8-10 is probably optimum (note that my experience is purely with experimental groups, theory ones are smaller by necessity)                                                                                                                                                                                                                 And in general, I'd advise not to be afraid. Yes, it will for sure be a complicated process; you'll face a lot of difficulties, but it's not that bad. It's always possible to ask your professors for some advice. There are a lot of informational materials in libraries, and there are also a lot of educational sites where you can find everything you need. For me, it can be problematic when it comes to writing, but it's also not a disaster because I found some useful websites and services that help me. For example, here is the service https://essays.edubirdie.com/do-my-coursework, which helped me some time ago with my coursework because when I was in the final stage, I faced difficulties and had all the chances to miss the deadline. So, it may all look complicated, but you just need to be patient and dedicate efforts, and it all will be great.

Thanks for the info! It's great that on this forum you can find some advices on different issues.

I'm not getting my Ph.D. yet, but next year will be the time already, and I still try to find out as much as I can. It looks very complicated to me, but I see that so many people succeed, and it gives me confidence.

Edited August 28, 2023 by mellyporter

[Datepalm]

This may be a contrarian take, but now the ink is dry (haven't quite worked up to adding "Dr." to the email signature, I assume that's when it actually takes hold?) honestly I had a pretty great time mostly. That was with Covid, dodgy funding in high cost of living area, etc. I mean, there were rough patches, but honestly, your advisor catching you crying in a corner at least once is basically a program requirement.

I got to do pretty much everything I wanted to, and going in with low - or, at any rate, non-romantic - expectations and some experience of, uh, having worked  actual jobs probably helped, as well as all my academic experience being in large, chaotic public institutions where no one gets quite what they want but everything sort of muddles by. This may be different in lab-based fields, but in social sciences where you're more on your own, I found that I sort of had to just go for stuff (publications, funding, research gigs, teaching, travel, etc) without expecting the program or advisor or anyone to tell you when to do what and how - because they won't. And I had a fantastic advisor, but it was still mostly me coming to him with whatever my latest tangent was and asking him to sign some form for some project about parking spots I was already half way through (possibly a bit cat-with-dead-mouse, from his pov.) Think of yourself as a project manager - the project being your PhD, but also longer term career, academic or not - rather than as a student.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Not to bring down the tone of this mostly upbeat thread, but I just noticed a PhD student in physics at UNC-Chapel Hill is accused of murdering his thesis advisor. Its even in a field I may have more than passing familiarity with (but not directly related). For those of you in the process of getting a PhD or thinking of getting one, this isnt meant as discouragement, but I would suggest taking care of your mental health by going on vacations, taking a few days off etc not thinking about work. You are meant to obsess over a problem for years on end, but not having it consume your life is also important.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:08 PM, IheartIheartTesla said:

Not to bring down the tone of this mostly upbeat thread, but I just noticed a PhD student in physics at UNC-Chapel Hill is accused of murdering his thesis advisor. Its even in a field I may have more than passing familiarity with (but not directly related). For those of you in the process of getting a PhD or thinking of getting one, this isnt meant as discouragement, but I would suggest taking care of your mental health by going on vacations, taking a few days off etc not thinking about work. You are meant to obsess over a problem for years on end, but not having it consume your life is also important.

Yeah, the academic machine runs on the dedication of workaholics, but it can easily be taken to excess. As a PhD student, that amount of work made sense to me, as it's a bit of a trial by fire. But there is just the reality that (experimental) research thrives on grant money, grant money often depends on publications, and so there's this great demand to churn out research and keep the loop running and running.

As a postdoc, things started to feel much more exploitative for me, and much more like a cult of work.  "Other labs work 100 hours a week, and you don't want to do 80? And here I thought you were serious about research." Probably depends on the field, and maybe the job market is better now, but it ended up feeling like a pyramid scheme to me, with the promise of tenure the carrot to get the lower-paid workers to push themselves to the edge. Definitely not healthy.

PIs and grad advisors do vary quite a bit, so if you feel any hint of that undue pressure, I would try to find someone else to work with.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Yes to all of that. Although as I get older, I feel like asking "Why are you running experiments in the lab for 100 hours a week? This just means you didnt design them right in the first place"

The other aspect to grad school is being among very smart people, some possibly smarter than you. This can lead to feelings of imposter syndrome etc., as well as bouts of depression as you question yourself. The only healthy way forward is not to compare yourself to others. Unfortunately much of academia operates precisely on being compared to others (most recommendation letters usually end with "I consider X to be as good as Y but perhaps not better than Z")

Edited August 31, 2023 by IheartIheartTesla

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Yes to all of that. Although as I get older, I feel like asking "Why are you running experiments in the lab for 100 hours a week? This just means you didnt design them right in the first place"

In my case at that last postdoc, it was the PI proposing ambitious multi-modal neuroimaging research but insisting that 1-2 people work on each project, requiring them to do a whole ton of stuff that a team should really be doing. So, poor planning, but for the sake of penny pinching. As a PhD student, I was the deputy of a well-run lab, and that was much healthier.

[The Anti-Targ]

Never got anywhere close to doing a PhD, but I have a son who is in his final 6 months of a chemistry PhD.

I think in general he's had a positive experience, he gets on very well with his supervisor and his research group is friendly and social. He's been able to travel and present at a decent number of conferences and even got to one overseas conference (Australia, i.e. next door). There have been frustrations, and he's not big on writing so writing his thesis is going to be the hard bit.

He suspended his PhD for a month one summer to have a proper holiday without eating into his PhD time, and he'll be doing the same again this summer (December). The way it works here, if you take a holiday without suspending your PhD the clock on your PhD (and the scholarship funding) keeps running. By suspending it means your 3 year deadline gets pushed out by the number of weeks you suspend (and you don't get any scholarship payments). You are also not allowed to do any active work on your PhD, I suppose that's to prevent people from gaming the system and giving themselves longer to do their PhD than they supposed to take.

The thing that is stressing him most right now is what comes next. Most of our universities are downsizing in chemistry and physics (and a lot of other departments) and post docs are very hard to come by. So if he stays in the country it'll be very hard to stay in the university system, if he leaves the country to work at an overseas university he'll have to start paying interest on his student loan (student loans are interest free here as long as you continue to live here until it's paid off).