Catelyn Stark was right, about basically everything

[Bendric Dayne]

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

She breaks Joff out of jail, with the hope that out of the kindness of their hearts, the Lannisters will free Sansa. Basically giving up the only leverage she has over them, on a hope and a dream.

 

No. She breaks Jaime out of jail to prevent the Karstarks from killing him because a dead Jaime is no leverage at all. A dead Jaime basically guarantees a dead Sansa. Cat releases Jaime so that the Lannisters don't kill Sansa. Yeah she tells Jaime that he is honor-bound to bring Sansa back to her, but she admits to herself that that isn't likely since Jaime is so dishonorable and an oathbreaker. She doesn't actually think he's going to keep his oath to bring her back. As much as she hopes that Jaime finds it in himself to keep his oath she doesn't release him for that reason. She releases him because she has to prevent his murder in order to keep Sansa alive. Besides, I don't know why you would think Jaime was going to serve them as leverage for much longer, the Karstarks were going to kill him which makes him worthless to Robb. Releasing him also makes him worthless to Robb, but at least it means that the Lannisters won't revenge kill Sansa. Either way, a freed Jaime or a dead Jaime, mean the Starks would have lost their leverage either way. Except a dead Jaime also gets Sansa killed, whereas a freed Jaime keeps her alive.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Bendric Dayne said:

No. She breaks Jaime out of jail to prevent the Karstarks from killing him because a dead Jaime is no leverage at all. A dead Jaime basically guarantees a dead Sansa. Cat releases Jaime so that the Lannisters don't kill Sansa. Yeah she tells Jaime that he is honor-bound to bring Sansa back to her, but she admits to herself that that isn't likely since Jaime is so dishonorable and an oathbreaker. She doesn't actually think he's going to keep his oath to bring her back. As much as she hopes that Jaime finds it in himself to keep his oath she doesn't release him for that reason. She releases him because she has to prevent his murder in order to keep Sansa alive. Besides, I don't know why you would think Jaime was going to serve them as leverage for much longer, the Karstarks were going to kill him which makes him worthless to Robb. Releasing him also makes him worthless to Robb, but at least it means that the Lannisters won't revenge kill Sansa. Either way, a freed Jaime or a dead Jaime, mean the Starks would have lost their leverage either way. Except a dead Jaime also gets Sansa killed, whereas a freed Jaime keeps her alive.

She doesn’t know Karstark is going to kill Jamie. In fact Karstark only kills the two young Lannisters, because he’s angry at Robb for pardoning Cat. She only frees Jamie because she thinks the Lannisters will give her Sansa back if she does; which they naturally have no right to do.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I don’t think she failed though. The reason she released Jaime was to save Sansa. If the Karstarks would have killed Jaime, Sansa is dead. She prevented that from happening. She doesn’t get her daughter back because she gets killed in the RW which we can’t expect her to predict, but regardless her daughter is alive. People say releasing Jaime was stupid, but don’t give a good reason as to why it was stupid. Was it stupid because it got her daughter saved? How is that stupid? Is it stupid because it affected Robb in the war? No because a dead Jaime would have had the same effect. So what exactly is the stupid thing here? If she lets Jaime die the outcome of everything else is essentially the same, except the Lannisters kill her daughter. She succeeded in saving Sansa, which was basically her only goal. Everything else that happened, would have happened regardless. 

Cersei failed. Jaime wouldn’t be able to hold him back either.

[BlackLightning]

16 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

The idea that the Lannisters would kill a 13-year old girl is a bit too far IMO.

No it's not LOL

If something happened to Jaime or Tywin, Cersei would have definitely killed Sansa. Moreover, if King's Landing fell to Renly or Stannis, Cersei - again - would've killed Sansa...or at least let her die. She said as much during the Battle of the Blackwater.

16 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

People say releasing Jaime was stupid, but don’t give a good reason as to why it was stupid. Was it stupid because it got her daughter saved? How is that stupid? Is it stupid because it affected Robb in the war? No because a dead Jaime would have had the same effect.

No

Releasing Jaime was a good move (it should've been done a long time ago) but the way she did it was both stupid, illegal and dangerous. She didn't notify the Iron Throne about the hostage exchange, meaning that they would be under no obligation to return their hostage. And then she didn't ask her liege for permission, meaning that releasing Jaime is not only a form of insubordination that directly undermines his cause but it was also treason. Even in normal circumstances, she wouldn't have the authority to unilaterally make such a decision: it would fall to Hoster and then Edmure.

And since Cat released Jaime without any authorization, Jaime had no escort. And we saw what happens when you try to send a political prisoner through a warzone with no escort.

[John Suburbs]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:18 AM, Springwatch said:

It would have been good enough in most places. She underestimated Varys - most people do.

There's safety in crowds. Not taking the King's Road, not sleeping at the Inn, would be very conspicuous - fewer people would see her, but they'd all know she'd got something to hide.

No. She first revealed her identity to the captain, who would love nothing more than to trade that information for a light assessment on the value of his hold, then she handed out silver to the entire crew, who then flooded the brothels with tales of the rich lady who just arrived at port. That's not underestimating. That's sheer idiocy. And it wasn't Varys who first learned of her whereabouts, it was Petyr. Varys learned of the dagger from Cassel's conversation with Santagar, but by then their cover had been blown.

Returning by boat would have been even less conspicuous, Cassel's green sickness be damned.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:27 AM, BlackLightning said:

For starters, @Tradecraft is half-wrong. Cat figured out that Jaime (and maybe Cersei) attacked and tried to kill Bran. When she was praying in the sept before Renly's assassination, Cat had an epiphany and realized that the truth of Stannis' words was truer than she had thought.

Is it an odd reaction? Well, let's be honest...it's not an odd reaction.

There are a lot of characters who know or have a feeling that Cersei is up to no good. When they find out exactly what Cersei is up to, everyone is shocked and left wondering if she really is insane. Seriously! Everyone from Littlefinger to Jaime Lannister to Taena Merryweather to Catelyn Stark, the list is long and growing.

Yes, that's what I meant. She remembered that Jaime did not join the hunt that day, but she doesn't consider incest until she hears it from Stannis. It's only an odd reaction if she had considered incest before that, since she wouldn't be surprised by it now.

Yes, I know Cersei's acts are shocking. All I was saying was that at the time Cat first concluded that the Lannisters were responsible for Bran's fall, she does not think incest was the secret they were trying to hide.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But we already know why she decided to take the Kingsroad instead trying to find a ship to White Harbor

1. Given the fact that Varys and Littlefinger both knew that she was in the city and trying to speak to her husband, she no longer felt safe waiting around in the city for a ship bound for White Harbor. Disguise be damned: the longer she stays in the city, the more likely it is for Cersei (or Jaime) to find out that she too is in the city.
2. She was wanting to personally warn her father and brother so that they could start marshalling their troops and calling their banners. Ned had not only given her leave to do so but he expected her to do so.

Ships leave the harbor every day. Even if one was bound for Gulltown or Maidenpool or Braavos, that's still a safer route than the kingsroad.

A raven or a rider would have been just as good as her going to Riverrun herself. And even then, there were safer, and faster, ways to go by boat -- ie, straight up to Harrenhal, where Lady Whent is both her kin and a trusted banner to her father, then to the Trident and the Red Fork. Or up the Blackwater to Stoney Sept, and then a short distance to the Red Fork again.

So again, a poor decision made without considering other options, or potential ramifications. And as I recall, these were not the reasons she took the road. It was to spare Cassel another sea voyage.

 

But you're right about Tyrion. Once he had eyeballed her, she had no choice. But if she was just a little wiser, she never would have been in that position at all.

Edited July 13, 2023 by John Suburbs
Added thought

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/11/2023 at 3:39 PM, Tradecraft said:

The things Catelyn Stark was right about are insane. 

The only thing she ever got wrong was Littlefinger. She should have known him better, but goddamn was she right about virtually everything else. 

She don't miss

-Catelyn immediately deduces the Lannister incest and attempt to push Bran out of the window in her early chapters in GoT. 

-Robb shouldn't have sent Theon Greyjoy away (cost him the North) like Cat said. 

-Robb should have kept his marriage pact with the Freys (cost him everything at the Red Wedding) like Cat wanted. 

-Releasing Jaime Lannister wasn't the worst call. He lost his hand in the Riverlands and so he's no longer a fighter (something she couldn't have foreseen?). He might have gotten Sansa Stark released if he had the chance in KL. I'd call this a wash/ neutral decision on cat's part. 

-Catelyn was right about the Westerlings. Jeyne's family were not to be trusted. 

-Catelyn was right to tell Robb to keep his direwolf close at all times and to not trust people that Greywind didn't like. 

-She sensed the red wedding as coming and slapped Edwyn Frey for his deception (wearing armor under his silks).  

-Robb sends Catelyn to Renly against her wishes. When she returns, Robb is married to Jeyne Westerling. She would have objected to the marriage if she was there, she couldn't afterwards. She thought as much when she met Jeyne. 

 

We're biased against female POV Chapters and, GRRM uses it against us 

 

Let's be honest. How many of us skimmed or skipped a female chapter because it "wasn't important". I have, sad to say. 

I sense that GRRM is using these natural or society taught biases against us. 

We're trained to think women are crazy, jealous, paranoid and weak (physically and emotionally). We don't like female figures in authority, it feels too much like they're trying to be our mothers or, it returns the feeling of being bossed aroubd by our mothers. It infantilizes us. 

Women aren't "supposed" to be in charge in our societies, and so we reject Catelyn and her ideas. People will accept paternal authority figures well enough, that "feels right" under our patriarchal society. Men are "supposed" to lead. Men are "strong" and "decisive"... Like Robb Stark. 

We see characters like Robb defying his mother on the matter of sending Theon Greyjoy away and we side with Robb (at least on the first read)... Despite Catelyn's advice and her insanely good track record. 

The worst thing people have against Catelyn is that she released Jaime and, I don't even find that too bad. Jaime isn't really a threat to the Tullies or Starks after he's released. What'd he do after he was released? Capture some doomed castles under siege in the Riverlands? 

 

I agree with Cat being right most of the time. 

I guess I never felt like I was trained to think women are crazy, jealous, etc though. I also don't skip over female chapters. Pretty sure I've never skipped a female chapter (Well maybe skimmed some of Brienne's but not because she is a female, it's because they are boring sometimes. I mostly skip Brans chapters honestly. 

 

There are plenty of women in charge in our society? The VP is a woman. I don't mean to suggest women have never been oppressed but certainly they are much more so in universe than irl? 

[The Duck and the Field]

I think a lot of the Cat hate comes from people identifying with Jon Snow, which I do understand. 

People say it was dumb to capture Tyrion, but I think it was even stupider to bring him to Lysa rather than taking him directly to Winterfell and holding him hostage.

I will say: one scene that made me dislike Cat a little bit was when she told Edmure to leave the smallfolk out to dry, but I like its inclusion. It makes her feel like a realistic noblewoman of her time, and I appreciate that. Really, I think that all of her decisions are in line with a few clearly defined character faults, which don't detract from her likability much for me.

[Springwatch]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:59 PM, John Suburbs said:

Ships leave the harbor every day. Even if one was bound for Gulltown or Maidenpool or Braavos, that's still a safer route than the kingsroad.

The last ship's captain sold her to Varys; I don't blame her for feeling burned. It's an easy thing for Varys to keep agents on the docks at KL, and other ports too.

Quote

And it wasn't Varys who first learned of her whereabouts, it was Petyr

I assumed it was Varys? He has the better networks, surely?

1 hour ago, The Duck and the Field said:

I think a lot of the Cat hate comes from people identifying with Jon Snow, which I do understand. 

Me too - until they start reading far between the lines and come up with a campaign of bullying not really in the text.

1 hour ago, The Duck and the Field said:

People say it was dumb to capture Tyrion, but I think it was even stupider to bring him to Lysa rather than taking him directly to Winterfell and holding him hostage.

Winterfell is better, but Tyrion's judgment is that he'll easily be followed and rescued on that road. Too predictable.

I think Cat would have preferred to sail south to KL from the Vale and accuse Tyrion to the king, with Ned backing her up. But it was Lysa's territory, Lysa's choice.

1 hour ago, The Duck and the Field said:

I will say: one scene that made me dislike Cat a little bit was when she told Edmure to leave the smallfolk out to dry, but I like its inclusion. It makes her feel like a realistic noblewoman of her time, and I appreciate that. Really, I think that all of her decisions are in line with a few clearly defined character faults, which don't detract from her likability much for me.

Depends what you think is going to happen to Riverrun. If it's a bit of speedy negotiation, the smallfolk are better inside. If it's a seige, then they can expect starvation followed by the sack. Better outside.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Springwatch
ETA I assumed it was Varys etc

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I agree with Cat being right most of the time. 

I guess I never felt like I was trained to think women are crazy, jealous, etc though. I also don't skip over female chapters. Pretty sure I've never skipped a female chapter (Well maybe skimmed some of Brienne's but not because she is a female, it's because they are boring sometimes. I mostly skip Brans chapters honestly. 

 

There are plenty of women in charge in our society? The VP is a woman. I don't mean to suggest women have never been oppressed but certainly they are much more so in universe than irl? 

Yea for sure. Crazy. It's 2023 not 1923.( Also, I kinda feel like in Cat and Sansas pov we witness the plot moving more then most)

Now having said that I kinda do wonder how much of the pushback on Catelyn is based on misogynism. Like, this lady should know her place and not get into politics or make the decisive family decisions. She does open the story scolding her husband on how to do his job, I read that as a constructive partnership where they were frustrated but yeah I also wasn't trained to think women are crazy and jealous or whatever. 

5 hours ago, The Duck and the Field said:

I think a lot of the Cat hate comes from people identifying with Jon Snow, which I do understand. 

See I don't understand. Not that I don't identify with Jon, I kinda do, don't really like him that much but obviously I was jaw on the floor when Cat tried to stop him from saying goodbye, and then then subsequent shit talking. Horrific Stepmom behavior (or whatever dark ages words applicable). But, my main guy is Tyrion and when she arrested him I was like "hell yeah!" Somebody tried to kill Bran! Like, her goal was the goal of the plot, Cats sometimes mean and Tyrions funny but I root for, you know justice or whatever. Especially so early in the story.

Although I never really got either how you can hate a fictional character, especially one written so well as the ones are in asoiaf. Like there are a few characters I disagree with constantly but hates a strong word and at the end of the day I'm glad they're in the story.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Winterfell is better, but Tyrion's judgment is that he'll easily be followed and rescued on that road. Too predictable.

I think Cat would have preferred to sail south to KL from the Vale and accuse Tyrion to the king, with Ned backing her up. But it was Lysa's territory, Lysa's choice.

If the Kingsroad had too many Lannister soldiers on it then KL is a non starter. Tbh I don't think she knew her second step, only her first, take the gift the gods have sent and arrest him. Now of course Cat didn't know her sister was into treason and murder and all around batshit crazy, if she did she wouldn't have gone there, or Winterfell or KL. Idk where she'd take him but she has to take him.

It's a three minute conversation, they had two of it when Tyrion told her he doesn't bet against Jaime and 60 more seconds of that should have cleared up the mess. But Tyrion would prefer to use his phone call to make a joke and Lysa is batshit crazy. When Cats recapping the conversation with Jaime she doesn't even remember what the story is because it's so filled with holes.

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Depends what you think is going to happen to Riverrun. If it's a bit of speedy negotiation, the smallfolk are better inside. If it's a seige, then they can expect starvation followed by the sack. Better outside

I don't remember, what happens to the smallfolk that Brynden threw out? The ones Edmure put in. When Frey and Lannister put RR to siege the smallfolk were harassed or BWB?

[sifth]

Wasn't Catelyn the one who talked Robb into putting Roose Bolton in charge of Robb's second army? Yea, the Greajon is a brute, but the guy is also Robb's most loyal general, replacing him with Roose, was easily one of the dumbest moves in the series.

[Ran]

51 minutes ago, sifth said:

Wasn't Catelyn the one who talked Robb into putting Roose Bolton in charge of Robb's second army? Yea, the Greajon is a brute, but the guy is also Robb's most loyal general, replacing him with Roose, was easily one of the dumbest moves in the series.

There was no indication that Roose Bolton was disloyal, no one thinks of him in that way, and she was exactly right that he was precisely the sort of commander Robb should want for the specific plan he wanted to execute since the Greatjon would likely have made a mess of it in his eagerness for battle.

It'd be dumb if people talked about Roose as untrustworthy or that he was always testing the boundaries of Stark control, but... well, that's not what happened. This was completely outside of her knowledge.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Ran

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

There was no indication that Roose Bolton was disloyal, no one thinks of him in that way, and she was exactly right that he was precisely the sort of commander Robb should want for the specific plan he wanted to execute since the Greatjon would likely have made a mess of it in his eagerness for battle.

It'd be dumb if people talked about Roose as untrustworthy or that he was always testing the boundaries of Stark control, but... well, that's not what happened. This was completely outside of her knowledge.

I agree

Ned never liked or felt comfortable around Roose (for good reason) but that doesn't mean anyone thought that Roose was incompetent or untrustworthy in military matters. A cautious nature makes for a good general.

Jon's thoughts/comments about the Boltons is made in hindsight.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

There was no indication that Roose Bolton was disloyal, no one thinks of him in that way, and she was exactly right that he was precisely the sort of commander Robb should want for the specific plan he wanted to execute since the Greatjon would likely have made a mess of it in his eagerness for battle.

It'd be dumb if people talked about Roose as untrustworthy or that he was always testing the boundaries of Stark control, but... well, that's not what happened. This was completely outside of her knowledge.

The guy looked like Dracula, his family has a history of hating Starks and making their skins into cloaks. 
 

Sorry, but Cat thinking Roose “Judas” Balton was the right guy for the job was beyond dumb.

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

There was no indication that Roose Bolton was disloyal, no one thinks of him in that way, and she was exactly right that he was precisely the sort of commander Robb should want for the specific plan he wanted to execute since the Greatjon would likely have made a mess of it in his eagerness for battle.

It'd be dumb if people talked about Roose as untrustworthy or that he was always testing the boundaries of Stark control, but... well, that's not what happened. This was completely outside of her knowledge.

From earlier in the same conversation where Cat talks Robb out of appointing the Greatjon to lead the second army:

Quote

"Be certain," Catelyn told her son, "or go home and take up that wooden sword again. You cannot afford to seem indecisive in front of men like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark. Make no mistake, Robb—these are your bannermen, not your friends. You named yourself battle commander. Command."

She may not have anticipated the depths of treachery he was willing to plumb but she was clearly aware that he was a potential threat.

While looking for that one, I also found this gem:

 

Quote

 

"... We need to march south to meet him."

 

The very idea of it chilled Catelyn to the bone. What chance would a fifteen-year-old boy have against seasoned battle commanders like Jaime and Tywin Lannister? "Is that wise? You are strongly placed here. It's said that the old Kings in the North could stand at Moat Cailin and throw back hosts ten times the size of their own."

 

Cat's counsel was to write off the Riverlands as lost and hold Moat Cailin because she didn't think Robb stood a chance against Jaime and Tywin. Robb ignored that, thrashed Jaime into the middle of next week and not only saved her family but acquired them as vassals.

 

Of course, Cat also told Robb he should have stayed in Winterfell and sent his bannermen to fight the war without him.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Arthur Peres]

I would say that Catelyn was more wrong than right the majority of the time. 

She was wrong when she pushed Ned to take the position of Hand.

She was petty to drive Jon out of Winterfell, even thought with the size of the castle she would barely see him, and if she is afraid of him becoming the next Daemon Blackfyre she should keep him close and watch him. Jon was also Robb's best friend and Arya favorite brother.

She telling not only Ned, but also Varys and LF about the dagger was a mistake. If only Ned had saw that, they might had a chance to get a real answer. The mission was a secret and she decided to expose that to two of the biggest schemers in the series... LF given their past can be understandable that she trust him, but Varys? no way.

Arresting/kidnaping Tyrion while not telling Riverrun, was a massive mistake, that started the war. 

Letting Robb put Roose in charge of the second army was a massive mistake, Roose is the last person to be put in a position of command. It's made even more tragic or confusing that Tywin was almost caught by surprise showing that the Greatjon's idea might have worked.

Freeing Jaime was also a massive mistake and the one that doomed her and Robb.

She was the one that suggested Edmure to marry a Frey and we all know how that ended...

Catelyn was right about sending Theon being a mistake.

She was right about making peace after Ned's death (but that also depend of Lannisters agreeing with peace, and they won't).

She was kind of right about not trusting the Westerlings.

 

[Ran]

5 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Cat's counsel was to write off the Riverlands as lost and hold Moat Cailin because she didn't think Robb stood a chance against Jaime and Tywin. Robb ignored that, thrashed Jaime into the middle of next week and not only saved her family but acquired them as vassals.

No it wasn't. Selective quoting does not help you. Continue that passage:

Quote

"Yes, but our food and supplies are running low, and this is not land we can live off easily. We've been waiting for Lord Manderly, but now that his sons have joined us, we need to march."

She was hearing the lords bannermen speaking with her son's voice, she realized. Over the years, she had hosted many of them at Winterfell, and been welcomed with Ned to their own hearths and tables. She knew what sorts of men they were, each one. She wondered if Robb did.

And yet there was sense in what they said. This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came . . . but not forever.

And then proceeds to listen to the plan and be impressed by it. She's fully on board by that point.

The fact that she is the voice of caution in these matters does not make her "wrong about most things".

As to Robb not being able to "afford" indecision before men like Karstark or Bolton, I'm pretty sure this is all about her concern that if they just think he's a green boy, they'll lose confidence and respect for him, which may make them try and take a few more liberties with their rights as lords. Doesn't mean they'll become full-on traitors at the drop of a hat. 

Roose Bolton's treachery was basically immediate, because no one had any inkling he could do such a thing -- not the fellow lords and warriors he deliberately led to their deaths, and not the Starks (and not even the Stark direwolves, as far as we know!) Pinning that on Catelyn is foolish.

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Roose is the last person to be put in a position of command. It's made even more tragic or confusing that Tywin was almost caught by surprise showing that the Greatjon's idea might have worked.

He was not almost caught by surprise. The Lannisters had plenty of time to fully prepare itself, and on ground of its own choosing, fighting against an exhausted force. The Greatjon leading would have led to many more losses, I expect, as he would not have withdrawn as Roose did (because Roose had fully expected to lose, bleeding the other Northern lords while keeping his own forces pretty much out of the fight). 

 

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Freeing Jaime was also a massive mistake and the one that doomed her and Robb.

Again, no. Robb's death was already being planned before Tywin knew that Jaime was free. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Ran

[fiatlux]

16 hours ago, The Duck and the Field said:

I think a lot of the Cat hate comes from people identifying with Jon Snow, which I do understand. 

People say it was dumb to capture Tyrion, but I think it was even stupider to bring him to Lysa rather than taking him directly to Winterfell and holding him hostage.

I will say: one scene that made me dislike Cat a little bit was when she told Edmure to leave the smallfolk out to dry, but I like its inclusion. It makes her feel like a realistic noblewoman of her time, and I appreciate that. Really, I think that all of her decisions are in line with a few clearly defined character faults, which don't detract from her likability much for me.

she notices that the castle yard is crowded with smallfolks and she thinks that her brother is too kind hearted (and loves him for that)

[fiatlux]

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea for sure. Crazy. It's 2023 not 1923.( Also, I kinda feel like in Cat and Sansas pov we witness the plot moving more then most)

Now having said that I kinda do wonder how much of the pushback on Catelyn is based on misogynism. Like, this lady should know her place and not get into politics or make the decisive family decisions. She does open the story scolding her husband on how to do his job, I read that as a constructive partnership where they were frustrated but yeah I also wasn't trained to think women are crazy and jealous or whatever. 

See I don't understand. Not that I don't identify with Jon, I kinda do, don't really like him that much but obviously I was jaw on the floor when Cat tried to stop him from saying goodbye, and then then subsequent shit talking. Horrific Stepmom behavior (or whatever dark ages words applicable). But, my main guy is Tyrion and when she arrested him I was like "hell yeah!" Somebody tried to kill Bran! Like, her goal was the goal of the plot, Cats sometimes mean and Tyrions funny but I root for, you know justice or whatever. Especially so early in the story.

Although I never really got either how you can hate a fictional character, especially one written so well as the ones are in asoiaf. Like there are a few characters I disagree with constantly but hates a strong word and at the end of the day I'm glad they're in the story.

If the Kingsroad had too many Lannister soldiers on it then KL is a non starter. Tbh I don't think she knew her second step, only her first, take the gift the gods have sent and arrest him. Now of course Cat didn't know her sister was into treason and murder and all around batshit crazy, if she did she wouldn't have gone there, or Winterfell or KL. Idk where she'd take him but she has to take him.

It's a three minute conversation, they had two of it when Tyrion told her he doesn't bet against Jaime and 60 more seconds of that should have cleared up the mess. But Tyrion would prefer to use his phone call to make a joke and Lysa is batshit crazy. When Cats recapping the conversation with Jaime she doesn't even remember what the story is because it's so filled with holes.

I don't remember, what happens to the smallfolk that Brynden threw out? The ones Edmure put in. When Frey and Lannister put RR to siege the smallfolk were harassed or BWB?

 

what gift? Tyrion?

I think she thought she didn't have those 60 seconds , on rereads I grind my teeth so hard!