Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[SpaceChampion]

So are the Seals like a pocket dimension? 

Edited October 7, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[karaddin]

They're just curled up really tight into a fetal position. Obviously the smallest one is Sammael.

[Martell Spy]

Yeah, I don't think that's going to be Mat's spear. It's more like a one-time improv, kind of like when the amulet got used as a weapon.

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

They're just curled up really tight into a fetal position. Obviously the smallest one is Sammael.

In which note, he got named by Moghedien in the dialogue so he’s definitely in. This gives us five named Forsaken so far, the three who’ve appeared plus Graendal and Sammael. So if they are cutting down to eight, that leaves three more. I think there’s a general consensus that Asmodean is in, so who are the other two to make the cut? Demandred and Rahvin?

[Maia]

2 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

Demandred and Rahvin?

 

I am pretty sure that Demandred will be fused with another FS and his name won't be used. Even readers found the similarity of Darmoded - Demandred confusing back in the day. Additionally, he, Sammael and Bel'al  have practically the same motivation for turning - namely jealousy of LTT.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Maia said:

 

I am pretty sure that Demandred will be fused with another FS and his name won't be used. Even readers found the similarity of Darmoded - Demandred confusing back in the day. Additionally, he, Sammael and Bel'al  have practically the same motivation for turning - namely jealousy of LTT.

Of course motivations for DFs can be changed as we've already seen. I would like Aginor to be in because he's the mad scientist and he was severely underused in the books.

[IFR]

7 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Yeah, I don't think that's going to be Mat's spear. It's more like a one-time improv, kind of like when the amulet got used as a weapon.

It's hard to say. As an improvised weapon it shouldn't even hold up. Jordan was an intelligent guy, educated in battle, who paid attention to details. The writers of this show pretty clearly are less interested in such things. People have already mentioned Wisdom Nynaeve pushing an arrow through Elayne's leg with the fletchings intact. It never occured to the people who wrote and filmed this sequence that this was a bad idea?

I can see a few approaches the writers may take.

1. This makeshift weapon remains Mat's weapon because the writers really are that dumb.

2. The dagger of Shadar Logoth remains part of ashandarei, but improved by being forged onto a stick professionally. This is still really stupid, because it obviously would not be a good idea to keep an evil object of great temptation near Mat at all times. And it implies that someone else also handled the dagger to forge it, which the show has demonstrated is very bad. I can see the writers being the sort who would go down this path.

3. Mat finds a replacement weapon. I don't think either of the Finns will be in the show. Ashandarei was obviously plot important to them; outside of them, it's just a cool weapon, but not important. So who knows?

@IlyaP We were not derailing the thread in our discussion. I addressed someone using the word woke, who clearly was using it with the definition I gave you. If you think that they're aiding the enemy by using the word woke and you want to discourage others in using it, that's fine, I applaud you for being a trailblazer in modern moral clarity.

The word itself doesn't matter in  the discussion. It was correctly pointed out that we should agree on what the conversation is about. I stated what I meant by using this word. You gave a different definition. The issue is not the word, it is effective communication.

If you want to police what words we can use, honestly I'm neutral on the issue and am willing to accommodate you and not use that word, because I think fostering a respectul environment is how conversations should be held. So in our future discussions on whether the show is 'woke', let's instead use the definition that I gave you and as an alternative for woke you can supply another shorthand for that definition that works.

How does that sound?

Edited October 7, 2023 by IFR

[SpaceChampion]

I'll repost this link:

https://nerdist.com/article/wheel-of-time-season-two-finale-showrunner-rafe-judkins-interview-forsaken-dragon-reborn-prophecy/

Quote

A lot of times, you’ll see us take the 13 and make it eight because 13 is such a repeated number in The Wheel of Time series. A lot of times, we’re taking it and making it eight just because it’s simpler to produce eight clans of Aiel. It’s easier than 13. Eight Forsaken could be easier than 13 Forsaken. But I will neither confirm nor deny that there are eight Forsaken.

I've been wondering if it was direction from Amazon to cut down to 8 Forsaken, and he's still hoping to have all 13 later.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

I'll repost this link:

https://nerdist.com/article/wheel-of-time-season-two-finale-showrunner-rafe-judkins-interview-forsaken-dragon-reborn-prophecy/

I've been wondering if it was direction from Amazon to cut down to 8 Forsaken, and he's still hoping to have all 13 later.

There were also 8 Aes Sedai, Lews Therin included, who imprisoned Ishamael.

[fionwe1987]

And wasn't Logain gentled by a circle of 8?

There are also 8 Ajahs (9 if you still count Verin as the one person Purple Ajah, which seems fair, since Ajahs are all about purposes, and none of the Ajahs did anything that encompasses all the arms of what Verin did), so can see this kinda working to replace the ways 13 is used in the books. 

 

[fionwe1987]

https://www.thewrap.com/wheel-of-time-season-3-filming-rosamund-pike-daniel-henney-interview/

Some quotes:

Quote

“I am speaking to you a day after filming it. We are in the midst of it. We are all energized by everything that’s going on in Season 3,” star Rosamund Pike told TheWrap in a June 28 interview, days before the onset of actors’ guild strike. “We feel like we’ve established the rules of our world, we can explore them and push the boundaries, we can do more experimental camera work and we can try and get a visual language for these incredible concepts that [author] Robert Jordan came up with.”

Quote

“Actors are really flocking to come and be guest stars on our show. They know that we have a show with diversity at its core, where people are embraced to celebrate powerful figures in all their dimensions and we’ve got fantastic actresses of all ages coming to do amazing work on our show, and actors too.”

Quote

Series co-star Daniel Henney, who said he was on a filming break at the time, teased that Season 3 would be “massive,” adding that there are “so many new cast members.”

Quote

“All of our directors are being encouraged to let their imagination run riot and really make something cinematic… the visuals of Season 3 are going to be incredible.”

 

[Arakasi]

I’ve read they did get more money for S3. Also I think in ways book four is likely the most filmable. For one it relies heavily on desert scenes which they can just replicate with nature. So it’s mostly a matter of finding some good locations like a good canyon where you can build a cliff city. It also doesn’t have huge battle scenes so extras aren’t as much an issue. The really cool scenes don’t have a ton of people (like Rhuidean) It’s very character driven between that and Nyneave/Elayne hunting black ajah. Perrins stuff as well doesn’t involve massive armies and they already have the two rivers set. Compared to books five or six it’s much easier to film I’d expect. Like I have no idea how they’d do the major set pieces in TFoH with the budget they have.

[fionwe1987]

I think they live or die by the next season. If it is a marked improvement over this one, and draws in a significantly larger audience because of the good press for S2, then they get a boost in budget.

Otherwise, they go the way of the Witcher or Shadow and Bone, where the set pieces are severely reduced in scale, making the whole "end of the world" aspect look ridiculous. 

Theoretically, they can pull it off, unlike ROP which has completely shot itself in the foot, as far as I'm concerned. 

Having to balefire Mat in S1- if a lot of the issues are tied to that, and they manage to do better now that they've patched that up somewhat, you could have a much better season. Maybe. We will see. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Werthead]

22 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

I’ve read they did get more money for S3. Also I think in ways book four is likely the most filmable. For one it relies heavily on desert scenes which they can just replicate with nature. So it’s mostly a matter of finding some good locations like a good canyon where you can build a cliff city. It also doesn’t have huge battle scenes so extras aren’t as much an issue. The really cool scenes don’t have a ton of people (like Rhuidean) It’s very character driven between that and Nyneave/Elayne hunting black ajah. Perrins stuff as well doesn’t involve massive armies and they already have the two rivers set. Compared to books five or six it’s much easier to film I’d expect. Like I have no idea how they’d do the major set pieces in TFoH with the budget they have.

Season 3 should have the battle for Emond's Field, which will be fairly substantial.

Although they've said 3 will be wholly or mostly The Shadow Rising, I wonder if they will be tempted to compress some Fires of Heaven elements into it, in which case we might get more stuff like the battle for Cairhien (in any case, they must be thinking they can get to Dumai's Wells by the end of Season 4).

[Arakasi]

Yeah but at the end of the day it’s a battle with what hundreds of Trollocs versus what a few hundred villagers? The whitecloaks don’t even take part in the fight. As well there is what one or two channellers there? Add in thy have the set already and I think it’s going to be fine. In ways the fight will be much like Falme with cuts around the village guarding against trolloc attacks.

[SpaceChampion]

Actually Emond's Field had to be wholly rebuilt.  For some reason they just ditched the set -- probably since a lot of it was burned in that episode.  They didn't keep anything from it.  Maybe Emond's Field will include some refugees from over the Misty Mountains so there will be justified an expanded village.

[SpaceChampion]

26 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Yeah but at the end of the day it’s a battle with what hundreds of Trollocs versus what a few hundred villagers? The whitecloaks don’t even take part in the fight. As well there is what one or two channellers there? Add in thy have the set already and I think it’s going to be fine. In ways the fight will be much like Falme with cuts around the village guarding against trolloc attacks.

100 trollocs was the Bel Tine attack.   500 was the first day of the Battle of Emond's Field, but more of them were coming in subsequent days (until Loial and Gaul permanently closed the waygate) so they actually grew in size, perhaps 1000. 

400 Whitecloaks sat around doing nothing.

Relief forces came from Devin Ride and Watch Hill, led by Faile.

Edited October 7, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

Actually Emond's Field had to be wholly rebuilt.  For some reason they just ditched the set -- probably since a lot of it was burned in that episode.  They didn't keep anything from it. 

I remember they made a whole PR thing about actually burning the village, as a kind of mark of how committed they were to the scope of the series. And I think you've hit upon why they felt they could do that...

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

Maybe Emond's Field will include some refugees from over the Misty Mountains so there will be justified an expanded village.

Exactly. This happens after the battle, mostly, in the books, but that's something they can change without affecting the plot, much. That would even let them scale this attack up. 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Gertrude]

S2 was much better, but for me the finale dropped it down again. No where near as low as S1, but it didn't leave me on a high for the season, and that disappoints me so much. As I'm thinking about it, most of it was the sloppy details. The episode felt super rushed to me because they just couldn't take the time to do the little things and had to keep moving.

The dagger is a huge thing that is bothering me. Yeah, they fucked it up in S1 and I can forgive them and go with them just forgetting about Loial and move on. However, how hard would it have been to find a different way to show the corruption of the dagger? Instead of a lightsaber, touching the lock with the blade could have corroded the metal and then Mat could have just used the blade to break the lock. Using it to cut open the box with the horn - why? It was never established in the show that it was a complex lock - Turak was shown turning a few knobs and Loial saw him do it. The dagger was insta-kill on the guard, but Rand hangs on until Elayne and her weak healing comes along.

Cutting Egwene's braid immediately just had me think "oh, they are sick of her wig budget." There are two waygates near Falme? The only reason I can see for that is that the girls needed cover to run away, and they also found a gorgeous site to shoot the Lan and Moiraine scenes they couldn't bear to not use. When Egwene steps in front of Rand, she swishes her skirt in defiance and that seem like a bit of overacting that seems artificial. Nyneave pretty much doesn't recoil at all when wearing the bracelet. She isn't relishing it, but I'd have loved to see how revolting it was for her instead of just a new sensation. And we've talked about her awful healing skills. I also would have liked to see her pull herself together and start Wisdoming instead of level headed Elayne telling her to. 

Sorry, I know this is a negative and nit-picky post, but it frustrates me to see something that could have finished strong just hamstrung by these sloppy details. It's not that it ruined it, but it just feels like they stumbled across the finish line out of breath.

I really do hope that S3 is strong the whole way through. I am absolutely optimistic, but man, I want a strong finale at some point.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

I just didn’t like the Moiraine part. Felt they nailed everything else. (Given their budget) Its not that she’s bad or anything but sometimes I feel they lean too much to give their top billing stuff to do that detracts from other characters.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Arakasi