War Declared in Israel

[Rippounet]

Hey, let's not be coy here, if we dig deep enough, we can blame Hitler for everything.

[A True Kaniggit]

4 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Hey, let's not be coy here, if we dig deep enough, we can blame Hitler for everything.

Dammit. Now I have to read the last two pages to see if anyone mentioned Hitler so I can respond.

[Zorral]

38 minutes ago, Makk said:

Throughout my life I have been placing significantly more blame on Israel.

I have been hearing and seeing that today on and in all sorts of venues, in which people, not paid pundits weigh. in.

~~~~~~~

The Despair and Desperation in Gaza

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/what-life-is-like-in-gaza-khaled-elgindy-q-and-a.html

Quote

.... In the midst of all of that, the Arab world is moving on. The new game in town is Saudi-Israel normalization. The two-state solution is off the table. Palestinian freedom is off the table. Washington is distracted with other issues; it’s not a priority. So I think all of those are the context in which they’re saying, “Look, right now Palestinians are the only people paying the price for the status quo.” The status quo is extremely comfortable for Israel, and the rest of the international community is complacent, because most of the costs are borne by the Palestinians. So, at its core, Hamas’ calculation is to radically overturn that calculation. ....

 

[A True Kaniggit]

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Hey, let's not be coy here, if we dig deep enough, we can blame Hitler for everything.

 I skimmed through the last few pages. What are you talking about?

( I can't tell because you didn't quote anyone in your post)

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by A True Kaniggit

[Conflicting Thought]

51 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Hamas has controlled Gaza a place with fairly hard borders no settlers, no soldiers and no occupation for more than a decade. Rather than building it up into any kind of state they have used their sovereignty to launch endless futile attacks into Israel. These attacks have no purpose except to kill to civilians. There is no military utility to blindly firing thousands of rockets into populated areas. There is no goal for a Palestinian state in sending militia out of Gaza to kill festival goers and people in their homes. If Ukraine started raiding Russia just to kill Russians I'm sure the vast majority would condemn it.

In fact these acts of "resistance" have irreparably harmed the chance for a Palestinian state. Many (most?) Israelis see Gaza as proof that any Palestinian state will only be used to launch endless attacks against them. The Israelis disengaged in Gaza dismantled their settlements and  ended the occupation there and for their trouble have received sixteen years of futile attacks and war.  

this is so crazy to read...yeah no soldiers or occupation, but did they have the material means to build such a state? i highly doubt it.

if ukraine had the context of  palestianians in gaza (and the west bank) it wouldnt be condemn, it would be just, it would be self defence (and them being white and european would be a factor on that to).

right, with out this attack happening they where sooo close to having a state, they know they are never going to have that right...its crazy to pretend that this attack changed anything for them, it was never going to happend anyway. we can look at how life is for the palestianians in the west bank, thats what living in "peace" with israel gets you if you are palestinian.

[GrimTuesday]

11 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Eh? How far back do “Root Causes” go i your non biases opinion
 

Remember when Israel was first created after WWII, but it was invaded by every country around them, but Israel only held them off through the sheer power of boner?

So isn’t the root cause the current conflict the previous invading countries?

The History of Israel also doesn't start with the Six Day war. There were numerous massacres by paramilitary organizations on both sides, and the displacement of Palestinians from their homes in the Nakba wasn't some sort of peaceful act, it was done through violence. No one would deny that Palestinians have committed crimes against the Israelis but Israel is the only one here who has real power to take the first steps toward peace.

Of course, if you're so inclined, none of this would have happened without Britain and the Balflour Declaration so, like with so many conflicts in the world, we can always blame them.

[A True Kaniggit]

6 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The History of Israel also doesn't start with the Six Day war.

Wow, wow.

No shit.

I'm gonna use Wikipedia for the quick version. But from what I posted, and how you responded. WOW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

 

Edit: The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, also known as the First Arab–Israeli War, followed the civil war in Mandatory Palestine as the second and final stage of the 1948 Palestine war. It formally began following the end of the British Mandate for Palestine at midnight on 14 May 1948; the Israeli Declaration of Independence had been issued earlier that day, and a military coalition of Arab states entered the territory of British Palestine in the morning of 15 May.

Edited October 12, 2023 by A True Kaniggit

[Rippounet]

5 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

 I skimmed through the last few pages. What are you talking about?

( I can't tell because you didn't quote anyone in your post)

Just a bad half-joke about where too much historical determinism leads (I've heard that conversation too many times).
(and dang it, I did forget we can also blame the British - perhaps we can squeeze in the US too?)
This whole mess is a cycle in which Israel did -progressively- gain the upper hand. Imho the question is more about what it takes to break the cycle. And of course, there's really no answer to that one. At best, we kind of know what it takes to slow down the cycle of violence, but if anyone figured out how to stop it, they'd get an instant Nobel peace prize.
The cruel hope one might have is that once the guns have talked and many thousands are dead, international actors will probably give it another shot.

[A True Kaniggit]

Just now, Rippounet said:

Just a bad half-joke about where too much historical determinism leads (I've heard that conversation too many times).
(and dang it, I did forget we can also blame the British - perhaps we can squeeze in the US too?)
This whole mess is a cycle in which Israel did -progressively- gain the upper hand. Imho the question is more about what it takes to break the cycle. And of course, there's really no answer to that one. At best, we kind of know what it takes to slow down the cycle of violence, but if anyone figured out how to stop it, they'd get an instant Nobel peace prize.
The cruel hope one might have is that once the guns have talked and many thousands are dead, international actors will probably give it another shot.

Yeah? I thought we were speaking of root causes.

 

[Darzin]

10 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

this is so crazy to read...yeah no soldiers or occupation, but did they have the material means to build such a state? i highly doubt it.

if ukraine had the context of  palestianians in gaza (and the west bank) it wouldnt be condemn, it would be just, it would be self defence (and them being white and european would be a factor on that to).

right, with out this attack happening they where sooo close to having a state, they know they are never going to have that right...its crazy to pretend that this attack changed anything for them, it was never going to happend anyway. we can look at how life is for the palestianians in the west bank, thats what living in "peace" with israel gets you if you are palestinian.

Hamas defacto controls a state weather it's recognized or not with a GDP per capita higher then several sovereign nations. And what they have used it for is endless futile war. The borders of Gaza have stayed pretty much the same since 1948 and Israel voluntarily dismantled the settlements there in 2006. Hamas' "resistance" is not defending anything. 

[A True Kaniggit]

10 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

This whole mess is a cycle in which Israel did -progressively- gain the upper hand. Imho the question is more about what it takes to break the cycle.

Bad bet on the part of the invading countries back in 1948 then I suppose?

But to claim Israel is the "root cause" of the current troubles when they were invaded at the moment of their existence is fucked up ya?

Don't you agree?

Edited October 12, 2023 by A True Kaniggit

[Makk]

46 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Of course it won't, but I hold out hope for that tiny, infinitesimally small sliver of hope that Israel feeling a fraction of the daily life of the Palestinians living under the brutality of the Israeli apartheid state will wake some of them up to the realities of their homeland.

To my knowledge there has been no confirmation of the whole baby decapitation thing, but that is only relevant in the realm of media literacy because one way or another, they're dead, but the narrative that happened, which was repeated and subsequently retracted by the white house, is all part of a propaganda campaign to absolve Israel's crimes and paint Hamas' already unconscionable crimes as even more brutal to convince people like you that their bombing campaign in Gaza isn't criminal and is instead justifiable because of the inhumanity of Hamas.

The very next thing I read online after making that post was about how there was doubt and no confirmation for the baby decapitations and I did edit the post at the top pretty much straight away. I now suspect it is not true as the original sources claimed it was filmed and posted which should be pretty easy for someone to verify although I could never watch that myself. I realise dead is dead but it does make a difference to me as it points to the motivations. Deliberately glorifying the beheading of a child is probably the most evil thing I can imagine. It goes well beyond any perceived justice or vengeance, it would be pure sickness. I can't even imagine how anyone would think fabricating that story is acceptable though. I'm not going to comment on this further until there is more information, I feel bad about likely spreading such terrible misinformation.

[GrimTuesday]

12 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Wow, wow.

No shit.

I'm gonna use Wikipedia for the quick version. But from what I posted, and how you responded. WOW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

 

Edit: The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, also known as the First Arab–Israeli War, followed the civil war in Mandatory Palestine as the second and final stage of the 1948 Palestine war. It formally began following the end of the British Mandate for Palestine at midnight on 14 May 1948; the Israeli Declaration of Independence had been issued earlier that day, and a military coalition of Arab states entered the territory of British Palestine in the morning of 15 May.

Yeah, I'm aware if that, I'm just a dumb ass who assumed you were talking about the Six Day War, it is the one normal people point to as an example of Israeli military success.

6 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Bad bet on the invading countries then I suppose? This could've been settled in the 1950's.

But to claim Israel is the "root cause" of the current trouble is fucked up.

Don't you agree?

When you have an asymmetrical conflict where one side has a monopoly on violence over an occupied people and the backing of the most powerful country on the planet which has a law on the books that says it will invade the Hague if the ICC were ever to try to hold the US or any of their close allies (including all NATO counties, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel and others) responsible for their crimes against humanity which shields it from any accountability for anything it does, there is absolutely one side that has to take the first steps towards peace.

9 minutes ago, Makk said:

The very next thing I read online after making that post was about how there was doubt and no confirmation for the baby decapitations and I did edit the post at the top pretty much straight away. I now suspect it is not true as the original sources claimed it was filmed and posted which should be pretty easy for someone to verify although I could never watch that myself. I realise dead is dead but it does make a difference to me as it points to the motivations. Deliberately glorifying the beheading of a child is probably the most evil thing I can imagine. It goes well beyond any perceived justice or vengeance, it would be pure sickness. I can't even imagine how anyone would think fabricating that story is acceptable though. I'm not going to comment on this further until there is more information, I feel bad about likely spreading such terrible misinformation.

I get it, emotions are running high and there is a ton of misinformation out there. I agree that it points to motivation, and that is what those who are maliciously spreading it are counting on as well. Both sides are engaging in propaganda (using this as a neutral term) right now, Israel has a history of blatantly lying as does Hamas, and both are trying to paint themselves as more moral than the other. It's just another battle being fought in this conflict and western media is much more likely to accept the Israeli side with considerably less scrutiny than the Palestinian narrative.

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Probably? I guess?

I use the 1948 war when Israel was invaded at the moment of its' inception and it drove off all invaders as an example of Israeli military success.  

Way to be a prick and not call me normal jackass. 

Don't blame me for your ignorance of history.

If you actively think I was trying to imply you are somehow abnormal in some sort of negative way, you're actively trying to be uncharitable. When I say "normal people" I'm talking about the general population who has a very general understanding of history.

As for my "ignorance of history" it was a incorrect assumption that I made and is not reflective of my knowledge. In fact, the massacres and displacements I was referring to previously were part of that war. For example the Tantura Massacre, where Israeli troops massacred the Palestinian village of of Tantura, the exact death count is unknown but it is thought to potentially be over 200 people who were then dumped in a mass grave at Tel Dor.

[A True Kaniggit]

56 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

If you actively think I was trying to imply you are somehow abnormal in some sort of negative way, you're actively trying to be uncharitable. When I say "normal people" I'm talking about the general population who has a very general understanding of history.

As for my "ignorance of history" it was a incorrect assumption that I made and is not reflective of my knowledge. In fact, the massacres and displacements I was referring to previously were part of that war. For example the Tantura Massacre, where Israeli troops massacred the Palestinian village of of Tantura, the exact death count is unknown but it is thought to potentially be over 200 people who were then dumped in a mass grave at Tel Dor.

 2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

iand the murder of civilians is repugnant, but the root cause of this is Israel.

 

Eh? How far back do “Root Causes” go in your non biased opinion?
 

Remember when Israel was first created after WWII, but it was immediately invaded by every country around them? But Israel only held them off through the sheer power of boner?

So isn’t the root cause the current conflict the previous invading countries?

 

 

I'm not well versed at quoting within quotes.

 

To complete the circle of this discussion, let's go back to the beginning when I first posted in this thread. You typed the bolded and italicized. 

My initial claim is at the moment of its existence Israel was invaded by its neighbor's.

Yay or Nay? Yet you claim Israel is the root cause of the current situation @GrimTuesday

Edit: 

Edited October 12, 2023 by A True Kaniggit

[GrimTuesday]

7 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

 2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

iand the murder of civilians is repugnant, but the root cause of this is Israel.

 

Eh? How far back do “Root Causes” go in your non biased opinion?
 

Remember when Israel was first created after WWII, but it was immediately invaded by every country around them? But Israel only held them off through the sheer power of boner?

So isn’t the root cause the current conflict the previous invading countries?

 

 

I'm not well versed at quoting within quotes.

 

To complete the circle of this discussion, let's go back to the beginning when I first posted in this thread. You typed the bolded and italicized. 

My initial claim is at the moment of its existence Israel was invaded by its neighbor's.

Yay or Nay? Yet you claim Israel is the root cause of the current situation @GrimTuesday

The conflict with the surrounding Arab states certainly was a part of the context of the larger conflict, and it does inform the actions of both sides, but the initial event isn't necessarily the root of the problem.

The root cause of this situation is the asymmetrical oppression that one side visits on the other. Plenty of other countries have had conflict as part of their founding and eventually made peace, Israel responded by annexing territory and carving up a land that they colonized, purposefully creating pockets of Palestinian populations that are separated from each other in a deliberate manner to isolate them from each other. They dispossessed Palestinians, they created the world largest open air prison in Gaza that they have under blockade and occasionally "mow the lawn" rather than actually seek a mutually beneficial peace.

The Palestinians and their various factions also have contributed to the mess that is Israel and often times haven't been an honest actor in their own right, but we are at the point were this is not a conflict between equals, it is a guy with crudely made bombs going against a literal nuclear power.

[House Balstroko]

44 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The conflict with the surrounding Arab states certainly was a part of the context of the larger conflict, and it does inform the actions of both sides, but the initial event isn't necessarily the root of the problem.

The root cause of this situation is the asymmetrical oppression that one side visits on the other. Plenty of other countries have had conflict as part of their founding and eventually made peace, Israel responded by annexing territory and carving up a land that they colonized, purposefully creating pockets of Palestinian populations that are separated from each other in a deliberate manner to isolate them from each other. They dispossessed Palestinians, they created the world largest open air prison in Gaza that they have under blockade and occasionally "mow the lawn" rather than actually seek a mutually beneficial peace.

The Palestinians and their various factions also have contributed to the mess that is Israel and often times haven't been an honest actor in their own right, but we are at the point were this is not a conflict between equals, it is a guy with crudely made bombs going against a literal nuclear power.

There’s another important point to make here. There’s no way to not have either the Israeli or Palestinian populations separated. Even the original 1947 UN partition plan made it so that Palestine would be split into 3 distinct parts while Israel would constitute a single entity with a 51/49% ratio for the Jewish vs Arab State. 

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Padraig said:

The Israeli tax payer wasn't funding Hamas.

No one said that was the case. Yes, I should have been clear that he merely allowed the transfer of funds to a group he knew to be terrorists.

8 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Israeli ambassador to the UK telling Newsnight it's okay to murder thousands of Palestinian civilians just to teach Hamas a lesson. 

 

That's awful.

At least the First Minister is trying to keep a level head about this situation though, and calling for humanitarian action.

8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

And yet the need to pivot like you just did there is constantly on display. It's so frustrating. 

I am trying to point out the reasons I think Hamas has support. How is it 'pivoting' to say that just maybe, some Palestinians join Hamas because Israel treats them badly? No one is trying to distract from the fact that what Hamas is doing is bad, if that's what you are implying. The UN special rapporteur says the ill-treatment of Palestinians contributed to the disaster.

Quote

"It is very clear what lies ahead,” Albanese said. “Human rights organisations have said it all along that continuing to oppress a population with total impunity would lead to a catastrophe, and this is what is happening.."

Edited October 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Relic]

7 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

This is likely delusional and naive to think, but there is part of me that thinks something good might come of this, 

That's a nice thought, but its far more likely that this will lead to an increase of terror attacks in the region and across the world, which will then result in more reactionary slaughter. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Relic

[karaddin]

17 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 Everyone needs to suck it up and be okay with Jerusalem becoming an independent state with equal oversight between Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. with the UN also having a lot of oversight. The Holy City should be a place where all are welcomed to visit. 

"Suck it up" is really the right choice of words and it's not just this. One of the other huge barriers to peace in circumstances like this is that it requires both sides to accept that there will be people they feel (almost certainly correctly) need to face justice who will get away with their crimes. There's no real solution to that, but there's rarely a way forward if you can't accept that.

I think the above comment about Israel isn't fair, nor is even arguing about a root cause a useful endeavor.

What I think is fair to say is that Israel is the only party with the power to appreciably improve things. Even in the miraculous event that Hamas completely lost all support and all their members were turned over to Israel immediately, the state of affairs for regular people in Gaza isn't going to start to improve without changes from Israel. That does put a greater burden on Israel if things are to improve, and perhaps that's not fair but it's the reality of who has actual power in the area.

17 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Great pro-Brexit argument there. Thanks.

I know this was off topic to start with but this is such a dumb comment. You are aware that Brexit did indeed happen and the UK is no longer in the EU right? Broadly speaking it was accepted that the UK had both the ability and the right to do this, and followed through with doing so. The primary bone of contention was whether it was a good idea or not, not whether it could be done.