Israel - Hamas War 2

[Relic]

4 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Hamas is in a position to conscript the entire male population of Gaza whenever they want. 

???

[Gorn]

Just now, Relic said:

???

It is the government there.

[Daeron the Daring]

12 minutes ago, Gorn said:

True, but the problem is far worse if Hamas is in a position to conscript the entire male population of Gaza whenever they want. There are no good choices for Israel, only more and less bad.

I think the illusion of the solution is that eliminating any, many or all Hamas members is, in fact, a solution. It is not, because terrorist groups of any name or form will gain enough public support to act as such as long as people are pushed far enough to symphatise with the violence they inflict upon the subjects of the political entity that unjustly hold them as prisoners.

You can cross out Hamas' name from the list, but that won't stop violence and injustice. It won't even de-escalate the situation.

And Hamas doesn't have the capability to conscript his entire adult male population. I assume.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Gorn]

16 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think the illusion of the solution is that eliminating any, many or all Hamas members is, in fact, a solution. It is not, because terrorist groups of any name or form will gain enough public support to act as such as long as people are pushed far enough to symphatise with the violence they inflict upon the subjects of the political entity that unjustly hold them as prisoners.

You can cross out Hamas' name from the list, but that won't stop violence and injustice. It won't even de-escalate the situation.

And Hamas doesn't have the capability to conscript his entire adult male population. I assume.

Thinking of Hamas as just a terrorist organization is a mistake. They are that, but they are also a government of a (admittedly small and impoverished) state, and have been in that position for the last 17 years. They are what ISIS was dreaming they would eventually become. 17-year olds in Gaza today have known nothing but Hamas absolute rule and indoctrination their entire lives. The entire human and material resources of Gaza, however small they may be, are currently at the disposal of Hamas.

Allowing that to happen was the biggest security mistake Israel has made in its history, and one I assume they won't repeat.

[Padraig]

25 minutes ago, Gorn said:

True, but the problem is far worse if Hamas is in a position to conscript the entire male population of Gaza whenever they want

Oh come on.  If it could do that, it would have.

23 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think the illusion of the solution is that eliminating any, many or all Hamas members is, in fact, a solution.

Yes.  Ultimately this.  Over the last 15 years, Gaza was relatively contained.  That was the "solution" to the crisis there.  But that can't last.

Hamas is not even the most violent Palestinian organisation.  If it goes away, there is nothing to say its replacement wouldn't be worse (remember how Islamic State arose elsewhere) unless there is an actual willingness by Israel to make serious change.   And that is not treat the people in Gaza even more like prisoners.

I'm not sure do experts really think it is possible for Hamas to actually go away.

Best interpretation, it is too early to learn about how things will change.  But given what has happened up to now, you would have to fear that things will just get worse, whether Hamas is there or not.  Edited to add: Maybe we may get a new facade and things will be quiet for a while.  Is that enough?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Padraig

[Spockydog]

What a world this is where there is debate on the rights and wrongs of bombing ambulances and civilian convoys. 

I mean, what in the actual fuck has happened here? In another thread, all the things the Russians were getting condemned for in Ukraine seem to be okay for Israel to do in Gaza. 

They are not the good guys in all this. Facscists. That's what they are. The BBC should play the Imperial March whenever anyone from Netanyahu's government is speaking. 

Also, I feel like some people here need to be reminded that this conflict didn't just erupt last week. This is what happens when an entire population has been brutalised and dehumanized for decades. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Allowing that to happen was the biggest security mistake Israel has made in its history, and one I assume they won't repeat.

True, but it’s even worse, right? Since Netanyahu wanted this b/c he saw it as a way to  weaken the Palestinian Authority, thus keeping the people divided and making a two state solution all but impossible. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Crixus said:

but there sure as shit are several cunts in previous or current governments who seem to have no problem saying so, such as that ‘justice minister’ did a few years ago (linked in previous thread).

Smotrich literally identifies as a fascist homophobe and instead of getting run out of government or even cynically politically minimized he’s been granted governorship of civil life in the West Bank.
https://apnews.com/article/palestinians-israel-occupation-west-bank-smotrich-netanyahu-e262d0bca6a637d217852ea238ab45b2
You don’t give such a man that type of position unless you want to encourage brutalization and terror on certain groups.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Padraig said:

I'm not sure do people think it is possible for Hamas to actually go away.

Peshmergas drove ISIS out of Mosul over 9 months of fighting. Israel is completely capable of turning Hamas into a non-entity in Gaza.

Israel will have to occupy Gaza once more and take over its administration. It then needs to think good and hard about why it left in the first place, and why it let Hamas take over, and what it needs to do for that not to happen again. I think it needs to find partners in Gaza who are willing to move past the decades of violence and hatred, who will be willing to fight against Islamist groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and Israel needs to support them, rebuild Gaza, and support democratic elections. An Islamic party will almost certainly win, but if Israel is able to normalize with Saudi Arabia and Egypt and so on, it sure as hell can normalize with a small Muslim-majority state on its border with Egypt.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

8 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I'm not sure do people think it is possible for Hamas to actually go away.

I mean, it is possible for Hamas to go away, but the violent struggle of the palestinians in Gaza won't. With conditions similar to the present one.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Netanyahu wanted this b/c he saw it as a way to  weaken the Palestinian Authority, thus keeping the people divided and making a two state solution all but impossible.

And now he’s going hastily going overboard in his response to prove he’s the fortitude of the strongman he’d like his people to accept.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

An Islamic party will almost certainly win, but if Israel is able to normalize with Saudi Arabia and Egypt and so on, it sure as hell can normalize with a small Muslim-majority state on its border with Egypt.

Eh, those two countries don’t have land Israel wants for can steal as much and the current Israeli society wants blood and supremacy. I expect we’ll see a more formalization of Aparteid in Gaza if there are any gazans left rather than Some benign progressive attempts at reforming things to relieve ethnic tension.

I also expect Israel to trot out how because they don’t literally stone gay people or women and girls for archaic idea of indecency libs gotta shut up as israel do the apartheid unless they hate women and the gays.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I mean, I'm not running around saying "Hitler didn't want to kill jews.", but he had been doing it.

Also, leave behind the implications and explain to me what my comment explains to you, I'm genuienly curious, because I don't want to put words in your mind and mouth.

Are you really calling leftist former Labor head and Netanyahu opponent Herzog a Holocaust revisionist? If not, who and what the fuck are you talking about?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Ran]

 

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

WTF? Are you really calling leftist former Labor head and Netanyahu opponent Herzog a Holocaust revisionist? If not, who and what the fuck are you talking about?

Please continue reading the thread. Daeron admitted he had misread and thought people were talking about Netanyahu.

[Relic]

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

 I think it needs to find partners in Gaza who are willing to move past the decades of violence and hatred, 

Best way to find partners is bomb them out of their homes and then ask them how they feel about working together.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Relic said:

Best way to find partners is bomb them out of their homes and then ask them how they feel about working together.

So long as Hamas controls Gaza, there'll be no end to the conflict. Any group that has the destruction of Israel as its goal can obviously not be a part of the solution.

History shows that you can in fact bomb an enemy one day and have them as an ally down the road.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Ran

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

History shows that you can in fact bomb an enemy one day and have them as an ally down the road.

Absolutely. America nuked Japan and after decades of cultural exchange and economic investment the two are allies.

Israel can have the same relationship with Gaza.

Though If not an ally in the more positive sense at least a vassal or subject.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

after decades

The U.S.-Japan Alliance treaty was signed in 1951. Hardly decades.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Any group that has the destruction of Israel as its goal can obviously not be a part of the solution.

This needs to be hammered into people's heads. Israel cannot not have peace with Hamas, but peace with Palestinians is a reasonable objective once Hamas is rejected by them. I honestly don't think it would even take that long once they're out of the picture, especially if the international community rallies with aid. This isn't a problem that can't be solved, but you need parties willing to be honest and do the hard work, which is also why the current Israeli government is not useful. 

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Absolutely. America nuked Japan and after decades of cultural exchange and economic investment the two are allies.

Japan is a very unique country for several reasons. I see no reason to bring them into the mix for this conversation. 

[Bael's Bastard]

No Arab state or entity killed more Israelis than Egypt, and although ties between the populations are still pretty cold, the govs have managed to make peace with Israel returning the Sinai many times larger than Israel itself. The difference is Hamas is devoted to genocide against Jews and no compromise. It has at best offered short truces to give it time to build up its capabilities. Every rocket it fires is intended to kill as many Jews as possible, just as every suicide bombings or shooting attack was before the wall and fences went up. The Iron Dome has made that less effective for now, but we see after this week what Hamas can do with any security failure on Israel's part.