Heartofice Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Here is a thread on some of the reasons why news agencies keep getting it wrong on stuff like this. Essentially many agencies have lost the ability to check facts internally, and don't have 'visual forensic' teams. So instead they go out and just ask 'experts' and take their word for it. At the same time, I think there is an incentive to just put out things as facts and push big scary numbers, for the clicks and shares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) Not to interrupt this riveting debate between people watching war on tv - Anywhere from 2,700 - 3,300 dead in Gaza since the bombings of a dense civilian population began. Anywhere from 1,000 to 1,400 children dead. Over a MILLION people displaced. Humanitarian aid still not supplied to the 2.3 million wives, fathers, sons, daughters, grandmothers cousins aunts uncles friends teachers doctors engineers waiters shopkeepers pets of Gaza. I'm not saying the hospital debate doesnt matter. It does, every life matters. It also sheds light on the difficulty of seeing through the fog and chaos of war. I'll repeat the only thing that i think matters - If the bombings were to stop no one could accuse anyone of bombing a hospital. Edited October 19, 2023 by Relic Crixus, Craving Peaches, dbergkvist and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 11 minutes ago, Relic said: I'll repeat the only thing that i think matters - If the bombings were to stop no one could accuse anyone of bombing a hospital. I think it does matter that half the middle east almost rose up over a bit of fake news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 11 minutes ago, Heartofice said: At the same time, I think there is an incentive to just put out things as facts and push big scary numbers, for the clicks and shares. It's also just about getting a number, any number, out there first, or as close to real-time as possible. Social media, perversely, has actually made journalism worse in this regard, because it's basically a competitor. But on the OSINT side of things, saw this article where one of the more respected guys in that space, Calibre Obscura, estimates 90% of alleged OSINT channels are just grifters and not reliable. The one really good one I've seen so far is Geoconfirmed, and I say this because they do something particularly good: they show their work as far as geolocating where videos and images are taken from, so a person can actually verify for themselves. Tears of Lys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Relic said: If the bombings were to stop no one could accuse anyone of bombing a hospital. If the rocket attacks stopped, the bombings would at the very least be fewer in number, since many of them are against rocket launch sites. I think you see this as a binary, that this conflict can stop and innocent people will no longer die. But this immediate conflict could stop today... and it is guaranteed that Hamas will strike out at Israel on some other day (they have launched rockets against Israel in 21 of the last 22 years, for example), and Israel will respond, and we'll be back in the same place Basically, you can have bombs today or bombs tomorrow, but there'll still be bombs. The only way to change this status quo that makes any sense at this juncture is to remove Hamas and hope that whoever follows in Gaza will be disinterested in using Gaza's civilian infrastructure as a base of military operations against Israel. Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran Fragile Bird, Jace, Extat and Heartofice 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, Ran said: I think you see this as a binary, that this conflict can stop and innocent people will no longer die. But this immediate conflict could stop today... and it is guaranteed that Hamas will strike out at Israel on some other day, and Israel will respond, and we'll be back in the same place A - It's not binary, and I don't see it that way. I'm well aware that this conflict has raged on, in one form or another, for decades. B - I highly doubt Hamas will ever again be able to breach Israeli security the same way they did last weekend. And if they did one would have to question WTF Israeli high command is doing in terms of border security. C - Again, how does bombing a densely populated area, displacing a million people, cutting of aid to civilians help Israel be safer in the long run? You keep acting as if this ridiculous lashing out will actually lead to peace, which is just...absurd. Which Tyler, Spockydog, Craving Peaches and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Just now, Relic said: You keep acting as if this ridiculous lashing out will actually lead to peace, which is just...absurd. I don't know about peace. All I know is that there will never be peace with Hamas, and so Hamas has to go because there is no actual way forward with them in charge 2 minutes ago, Relic said: I highly doubt Hamas will ever again be able to breach Israeli security the same way they did last weekend. Well, yes, because if you believe Gaza suffers under a blockade now, just imagine the lengths Israel will go to never let them have access to Israel again if it allowed Hamas to stay in power. I fully understand the empathetic desire to stop harm. But harm can be projected into the future, and it is clear that Hamas being in control of Gaza guarantees harm in the future. Call on the people of Gaza to rise up and throw out Hamas. That would be an acceptable way to get rid of Hamas. But until that happens, Israel is right to go after Hamas, to destroy their capabilities, to seek all methods possible to end their foreign support, and to dislodge them from power so that hopefully someone less genocidal takes charge of Gaza. Jace, Extat and Fragile Bird 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, Relic said: C - Again, how does bombing a densely populated area, displacing a million people, cutting of aid to civilians help Israel be safer in the long run? You keep acting as if this ridiculous lashing out will actually lead to peace, which is just...absurd. What is the other method of removing Hamas? Hope the Palestinians do it by themselves? Is there even a will from them to do that? The current solution is bad, but I also am not surprised Israel has basically given up on waiting for Hamas to go away, and is taking steps to remove them by force. Jace, Extat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Ran said: Call on the people of Gaza to rise up and throw out Hamas. How are you going to do that NOW, after you bombed the every living shit out of Northern Gaza? Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: Israel Gaza live news: Sunak condemns 'horrific terrorism' as he arrives in Israel - BBC News Why are they claiming this if they didn't even do it? To make clear that this story was - to a large extent - a fabrication. Heartofice and Ran 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 37 minutes ago, Relic said: How are you going to do that NOW, after you bombed the every living shit out of Northern Gaza? I don't know, how do rebellions ever start? Someone stands up and says, "No more." Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Ran said: Call on the people of Gaza to rise up and throw out Hamas. That would be an acceptable way to get rid of Hamas. But until that happens, Israel is right to go after Hamas, to destroy their capabilities, to seek all methods possible to end their foreign support, and to dislodge them from power so that hopefully someone less genocidal takes charge of Gaza. It’d be good if Gazans threw out Hamas and got better people in charge. Though I think in their material circumstance and where they are ideologically they’d just be lulled into supporting another extremist group who’d stand up to the people who’d displace them l deprive them of water and compare them to animals. Edited October 19, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321 dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbergkvist Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Hamas isn't present in the West Bank, but Israel still allows racist Israeli settlers to terrorize the place (and even gives them military protection). "If you overthrow the government and install a peaceful one, we'll stop bombing you, and instead just abuse in other ways" is not a very good argument. Which Tyler, kissdbyfire, Crixus and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dbergkvist said: Hamas isn't present in the West Bank, but Israel still allows racist Israeli settlers to terrorize the place (and even gives them military protection). "If you overthrow the government and install a peaceful one, we'll stop bombing you, and instead just abuse in other ways" is not a very good argument. The Cherokee kinda tried to Europeanize themselves both in their style of government and social mores to prove to America they—unlike the other native groups the Americans conquered—were actually as civilized and thus not deserving of having their lands taken. America still did it because the core reasoning for expansion was never some liberal ideal or even respect for Christianity, it was ethnic supremacy. Again though Hamas should go, it’s corrupt, an oligarchy, and functions largely as a death cult, but removing them or people like them on the Palestinian side by itself won’t fix the situation. Edited October 19, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321 Crixus, dbergkvist and kissdbyfire 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 13 minutes ago, dbergkvist said: Hamas isn't present in the West Bank, but Israel still allows racist Israeli settlers to terrorize the place (and even gives them military protection). "If you overthrow the government and install a peaceful one, we'll stop bombing you, and instead just abuse in other ways" is not a very good argument. Comparing the two areas is dishonest though. The last Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were evacuated in 2005. There was even some resistance but the IDF and the police overcame it. Israel would probably give it to Egypt if they actually wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbergkvist Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said: Comparing the two areas is dishonest though. The last Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were evacuated in 2005. There was even some resistance but the IDF and the police overcame it. I know that they are different. But that's my point: when people say that the people in Gaza should overthrow Hamas and install somebody else, what they mean is that they should install more pliable rulers. Which would turn Gaza more into the West Bank. And we know what Israel does on the West Bank. Edited October 19, 2023 by dbergkvist Craving Peaches, kissdbyfire and Crixus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, dbergkvist said: I know that they are different. But that's my point: when people say that the people in Gaza should overthrow Hamas and install somebody else, what they mean is that they should install more pliable rulers. Which would turn Gaza more into the West Bank. And we know what Israel does on the West Bank. I actually see it differently. The result of abandoning Gaza which involved immediate desecration of synagogues as soon as the Israelis were gone and Gaza becoming a difficult to assault lunch platform for missile attacks and now raids is what made any plans of abandoning the West Bank completely impossible because it is only logical to assume the same would happen there. Edited October 19, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand Heartofice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 19, 2023 Author Share Posted October 19, 2023 41 minutes ago, Ran said: I don't know, how do rebellions ever start? Someone stands up and says, "No more." True. Might be hard right now though, since I don’t see people who are starving and dying of dehydration to be able, physically or mentally, to rise up in rebellion. Craving Peaches and Crixus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crixus Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Relic said: How are you going to do that NOW, after you bombed the every living shit out of Northern Gaza? Honestly, some of the rhetoric on here is mind-boggling, between the faux-expertise delivered in 'dispassionate' tones, and the casual, sweeping statements like, 'the middle east almost rose up'. TIL scattered, admittedly heated and large protests = an entire region 'rising up'. I would love to see the terminology used when white people protest - bet it's significantly more positive. It's so fucking easy to make suggestions like 'Palestinians should get rid of Hamas, wtf is wrong with them lol'. It's super easy for a subjugated people, half of them kids, to rise up and overthrow violent fuckheads who would just as easily kill them as the 'enemy' - especially when they're living under siege conditions! I mean, wtf don't countries routinely overthrow shitty governments? It should be happening monthly, given how many shitty governments there are. Hell, why is Netanyahu still around??? Why haven't Israeli people got rid of him? And before you say 'Hamas=terrorists so it's different' - yes, they are terrorists. But we're also banging on about how they're the government, right? I've seen loads of posts on here remind us of this. So perhaps both the Israelis and Palestinians should simply overthrow their shitty governments and start over! Hilariously simplistic, this epitome of sage armchair expertise. Last, to be very clear: Hamas and other such groups need to be eradicated in their entirety. Such extremist terror groups cause a shit ton of grief and deaths amongst their own populations, and outside. What happened to Israel last week was unconscionable and horrific and it truly saddens me. Yet, Palestinian suffering has EQUAL MERIT. Getting rid of Hamas doesn't justify killing loads of civilians, just as nothing justified killing all those Israelis. We are all human, but you wouldn't know it with the constant demonising of brown Muslims many people seem to relish online - especially of the subtle, wink wink nature. Such as confidently saying Jewish people have an ancestral claim to those lands without also acknowledging that expelling 700,000+ Palestinians from those lands is appalling - in fact, 'curiously' questioning why Palestinians even think they have any claim (what presumptuous brown idiots!), because of xyz flimsy as fuck 'logic'. Please extend that analogy to the US, Canada, Australia and NZ, and ask all European origin citizens to 'return' the Native Americans/First Nations their ancestral lands in that case - see how stupid and offensive that sounds? I'm brown, and was Muslim by accident of birth. I don't practise and am pretty much an agnostic, if not an atheist, but some of this discourse has me extremely upset and hurt - guess I still have those roots somewhere. Edited October 19, 2023 by Crixus dbergkvist, fionwe1987, Matrim Fox Cauthon and 10 others 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said: raids is what made any plans of abandoning the West Bank completely impossible Okay but why appoint a self-admitted fascist to oversee The West Bank, keep building settlements, and kinda protect Settler terrorists? dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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