Israel - Hamas War V

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The frustrating part is they're overwhelming against Israel

I’ve been severely critic of the actions/response of Israel’s government, not of Israel/Israelis. In my mind there is a very big difference. 

[JGP]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve been severely critic of the actions/response of Israel’s government, not of Israel/Israelis. In my mind there is a very big difference. 

Same.

Just as I don't equate the horrendous actions of Hamas with all Palestinians, but on that side there's been arguments herein about Hamas being Gaza's government, references to their former Charter, etc.

At some point it's just smoke rings blown at mirrors.   

[Varysblackfyre321]

The difference in culture is being not viewed as white, people who often bolster their political adversaries

[Daeron the Daring]

35 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

here one article about the rise in antisemitism

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/a-lot-of-pain-europes-jews-fear-rising-antisemitism-after-hamas-attack

 

from the article:

"Seeing the hostilities against Jewish people elsewhere in Europe, Pavoncello said: “It feels as if we’re going back in time. People say it’s not antisemitism but anti-Zionism. But at the end of the day, this is the outcome.”

Maybe that has to do with the political scale shifting more and more towards the right these days on a global scale?

[JoannaL]

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Maybe that has to do with the political scale shifting more and more towards the right these days on a global scale?

Well, no; the right is a generally speaking certainly also problematic, but these recent antisemitic  attacs are a reaction of the recent situation Israel-Hamas and the right is not as invested in this as the left and arabic minorities in Europe.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve been severely critic of the actions/response of Israel’s government, not of Israel/Israelis. In my mind there is a very big difference. 

There is a difference and I've been critical of them too. However, the outsized criticism of the Israeli government compared to Hamas is disappointing especially when you consider they're the ones who murdered over a thousand people in cold blood then took civilian hostages, because just like with their own citizens, they view them as meat shields and/or bargaining chips. The Israeli government sucks a lot, but the need to focus on them extensively while once in a while saying "Hamas bad" is pretty disheartening to every Jewish person. 

[DanteGabriel]

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Some criticisms are certainly warranted. The frustrating part is they're overwhelming against Israel with a casual Hamas is also bad when Hamas was the attacker knowingly using their own people as shields when the inevitable response came. The disproportionality of blame in these threads is chilling. 

Can we just... not have this thread again devolve into "you didn't say enough bad stuff about one side before you criticized the other side"?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, DanteGabriel said:

Can we just... not have this thread again devolve into "you didn't say enough bad stuff about one side before you criticized the other side"?

There needs to be some semblance of balance. 

[DanteGabriel]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There needs to be some semblance of balance. 

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that there are, indeed, posts or arguments that are unfair towards Israel. Is it your contention that they're doing so because they hate Jews?

Asking as a guy whose best friends as a kid were Jewish, went to a dozen Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, and thinks the actions of Netanyahu's shitty criminal government are taking Hamas' bait and making things worse for Israel in the long run.

 

ETA: fuck Hamas forever, just in case I'm not being sufficiently balanced.

Edited October 20, 2023 by DanteGabriel

[Relic]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There needs to be some semblance of balance. 

There was, on day one. Very much slanted towards shock and outrage and disgust with Hamas. Since that day the aggression we're seeing is mostly one sided. It's natural to focus on Gaza right now, since its Gaza that's been getting fucked for 13 days.

Again, Israel and its people had overwhelming support and sympathy on October 7th. Had they (Israeli high command) responded to those heinous attacks in a more rational and measured way support would have probably remained pretty high. 

Killing 1,400 children in 13 days means the Israeli government will hear not an ounce of positive feedback from mine own lips. They can go fuck themselves. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Relic

[fionwe1987]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There needs to be some semblance of balance. 

So for the sake of balance, we are to be less horrified that a democratically elected government is baying for blood, and harming thousands of civilians?

I'm sorry, but I'm personally more horrified at what Israel is doing not just because of the scale of its actions, but because it is a democratic government doing this, not a terrorist organization as Hamas.

I do hold democratic governments to higher standards. This isn't hypocrisy. What the fuck is the point of democratic governance if it is as bad or worse than a fucking terrorist group?

Israel's government isn't alone in this. The Indian government, the American government... They all have crossed lines in the name of fighting terrorism that makes it hard to distinguish them at times from the terrorists.

I think my efforts and speech are better directed at these governments than the terrorists.

I suggest these governments and their supporters wear their big boy pants and stop thinking that "the terrorists did it first" is going to sell as an argument. 

ETA: in so far as I'm measuring empathy, I also feel the Israeli people have the infrastructure and space to deal with the horrors hey faced. Gazans do not. For every child killed, there's a possible parent who has lost a child and has to deal with continued real threat to their other children, and themselves, and displacement, and no water, and no electricity and an imminent ground invasion. 

Is anyone going to seriously tell me this isn't worse for the people of Gaza?

Edited October 20, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Daeron the Daring]

24 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Well, no; the right is a generally speaking certainly also problematic, but these recent antisemitic  attacs are a reaction of the recent situation Israel-Hamas and the right is not as invested in this as the left and arabic minorities in Europe.

Well, it's hard to not have more antisemitism, when the tought of Israel/israelis lands in much more people's minds than usually, because of the ongoing conflict. 

In that fashion, more people express antisemitism towards palestinians as well. 

But that is true in all situations. Where I live, calling someone ukrainian or russian had become a curseword because of the war. Calling someone a jew had never stopped being one.

What I referred to was the shift in the popularity of social trends towards a more xenophobic/discriminatory attitude over the past years. On top of people becoming more and more polarized, more people shift towards the political right as well. 

What I'm saying is that antisemitism had been growing for a long time, regardless of the current situation, which obviously does create a 'spike' on a hypothetical graph that measures just that.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[JoannaL]

1 minute ago, Relic said:

There was, on day one. Very much slanted towards shock and outrage and disgust with Hamas. Since that day the aggression we're seeing is mostly one sided. It's natural to focus on Gaza right now, since its Gaza that's been getting fucked for 13 days.

Again, Israel and its people had overwhelming support and sympathy on October 7th. Had they responded to those heinous attacks in a more rational and measured way support would have probably remained pretty high. 

The Israeli were attacked by Hamas and now the defend themselves and attack Hamas (which governs Gaza) back. This is what is happening. I think this is the response every governemnt in the world would give after such an attack. And it would be seen as rational and measured. there are reports of war crimes and if true (and by some it is far from clear if true like the hospital attack which may have been  a Hamas propaganda scam -or not ) then this needs to be condemned. But overall - regarding the Israeli were attacked first (and in the most bloody and heinous way by unfeeling animals, NOT by valiant freedom fighters), they get to much critisims (to use a very neutral word) by far.

 

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, JoannaL said:

The Israeli were attacked by Hamas and now the defend themselves and attack Hamas (which governs Gaza) back. This is what is happening. I think this is the response every governemnt in the world would give after such an attack. And it would be seen as rational and measured. there are reports of war crimes and if true (and by some it is far from clear if true like the hospital attack which may have been  a Hamas propaganda scam -or not ) then this needs to be condemned. But overall - regarding the Israeli were attacked first (and in the most bloody and heinous way by unfeeling animals, NOT by valiant freedom fighters), they get to much critisims (to use a very neutral word) by far.

No. You're firstly mixing up what should happen with what is happening. Second, you're calling other humans animals, and that is a line that you shouldn't cross if you have any conception of the awfulness of the Holocaust (which you seem to), so it's clear you've written off this group of humans because it's convenient. They're no more animals than Bibi's government is for its crimes. They're terrorists and murderers and have to go. But they're not animals. 

You're conflating a right to defense to a right to harm civilians, and that is absolutely not the case when it comes to international law.

And don't you see the absurdity of "wait to see what happens before condemning it" here? The wait means more lives lost, so sorry, no one's going to wait. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that there are, indeed, posts or arguments that are unfair towards Israel. Is it your contention that they're doing so because they hate Jews?

I'd like to believe in the best of people so let's say lack of understanding/empathy.

19 minutes ago, Relic said:

There was, on day one. Very much slanted towards shock and outrage and disgust with Hamas. Since that day the aggression we're seeing is mostly one sided. It's natural to focus on Gaza right now, since its Gaza that's been getting fucked for 13 days.

On day one people celebrated the attack in numerous major cities around the world and for days after.

 

[Bironic]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I do hold democratic governments to higher standards. This isn't hypocrisy. What the fuck is the point of democratic governance if it is as bad or worse than a fucking terrorist group?

Israel's government isn't alone in this. The Indian government, the American government...

I could totally agree with you if you would acknowledge that there is a difference between what Israel does (which is bad and counterproductive) and what Hamas does... Yes it's bad what Israel does but it's not as bad or worse than what hamas does... they do not intentionally target civilians, they merely don't care much about civilians... It's a false equivalency...

Don't know much about the indian government (but from what I heard about Modis past in regional government) maybe they are as bad as Terrorists...

6 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

regarding the Israeli were attacked first (and in the most bloody and heinous way by unfeeling animals, NOT by valiant freedom fighters),

That's exactly the kind of language that is not helping anyway... Yes Hamas might be horrible, it doesn't make them animals...(and as a side note animals should also be treated with respect)

[JoannaL]

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

No. You're firstly mixing up what should happen with what is happening. Second, you're calling other humans animals, and that is a line that you shouldn't cross if you have any conception of the awfulness of the Holocaust (which you seem to), so it's clear you've written off this group of humans because it's convenient. They're no more animals than Bibi's government is for its crimes. They're terrorists and murderers and have to go. But they're not animals. 

You're conflating a right to defense to a right to harm civilians, and that is absolutely not the case when it comes to international law.

And don't you see the absurdity of "wait to see what happens before condemning it" here? The wait means more lives lost, so sorry, no one's going to wait. 

I am not calling all of Hamas animals, but the ones who attacked and tortured and murdered (slowly over hours) little children while their parents had to watch, burned babies and raped women multiple times ( in case of the hostages are still doing it) , yes I think they are animals.

 

[JGP]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

On day one people celebrated the attack in numerous major cities around the world and for days after.

But your previously aired beef was about some posters in these threads, Ty.

I like you man, but pick a lane, bruh.

[kissdbyfire]

Not to pour gasoline on the fire, but while it is true we’re seeing more antisemitism since the start of the war, we’re also seeing more Islamophobia everywhere. 
 

Perhaps a better way of describing this is as a rise in hate crimes/speech, which both antisemitism and Islamophobia are. 
 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/antisemitic-islamophobic-offences-soar-london-after-israel-attacks-2023-10-20/

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Bironic said:

they do not intentionally target civilians

They do. They intentionally targeted Shireen Abu Akleh, for one.