Israel - Hamas War V

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

An ethnicity and a nation are overlapping definitions.

And still, they are not the same thing. I am an ethnic hungarian, and part of the romanian nation, as a minority born and living in the country of Romania as a full-right romanian citizen. I cannot identify as an ethnic romanian, because I couldn't even prove to be one as far as my ancestor's legal records go back. I mean, I could, I'm allowed to, but that doesn't change reality.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

In many places ethnicities and nations are the same thing.

They are never the same thing, because an entirely homogenous country on planet Earth does not exist.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

The fact that you are saying that there are no actual nation-states in the world just shows that you and Varysblackfyre321 are using some fantasy definitions of the word that have little to do with reality.

No, it shows that I am aware of the actual meaning of the word. The ethnic romanians that dream of an actual nation state in my country call for entire assimilation or revocation of citizenship in case of its minorities, because their ideal Romania is a state only for romanians that identify as ethnic romanians. (Look up AUR

So when there are people who actually use the term in its actual meaning, you shouldn't be, because you are the one with the fantasy that the term in its original meaning means nothing to noone.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Israel behaves like your standard nation state

I wouldn't go as far as saying that racial segregation or treatment of minorities as second-grade citizens is a standard that countries you classify as nation states (particularly) in Europe use as a norm within its own borders.

Edit: On the other hand thou, don't worry, I condemn the neo-colonialism/imperialism that european/'western' countries exercise outside their borders to this day, including that of Israel.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Almost every country in the world would behave the same way.

It's rich of you to think that, but even richer is to think that this makes anything right or justifiable.

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Talking about some ethnostates with some fantasy definitions of the word that have no bearing to real life is really not useful and is just distracting from the whole thing.

Maybe educate yourself then, so that you can arrive to a realization that there are people everywhere, actually believing in the righteousness of the real concepts of nation-states and ethnostates, and you shouldn't be using those terms to express something different.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

Israeli army warns anyone refusing to leave Gaza City will be considered a ‘terrorist’

Since the morning, we are getting calls on our mobile phones with a recording by the Israeli army. It says any person who has returned to or is still in Gaza City is a terrorist and is considered a collaborator.

They say that whoever remains in Gaza City will bear the consequences.

Israel-Hamas war live: No let-up in bombing as 20 aid trucks enter Gaza | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Uh oh.

[Zorral]

Heard this AM from a long-time, Israeli, amiga, who lives in a Palestinian community within Israel (and her great grandfather was Ben-Gurion).  She had just returned from a support vigil for the families of hostages.  "This terrorist government is ignoring their existence," she said.

She was actually on Cyprus the weekend this kicked off.  It took her a while to get back to her home.

What she has gathered since then, the real reason the Israeli military was so back-footed in this invasion is, "Like all western militaries, they are dependent on air power.  They sit around on their bases with their fones in their hand and without caring for their hand weapons or preparing their hand weapons for when they have to leave."

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And still, they are not the same thing. I am an ethnic hungarian, and part of the romanian nation, as a minority born and living in the country of Romania as a full-right romanian citizen. I cannot identify as an ethnic romanian, because I couldn't even prove to be one as far as my ancestor's legal records go back. I mean, I could, I'm allowed to, but that doesn't change reality.

I did not say they are the same thing, I said they are overlapping with each other.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

They are never the same thing, because an entirely homogenous country on planet Earth does not exist.

I'll tell you more, a homogeneous ethnicity doesn't exist, except maybe if we don't count some tribes in jungles and even then I am not so sure.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying that racial segregation or treatment of minorities as second-grade citizens is a standard that countries you classify as nation states (particularly) in Europe use as a norm within its own borders.

This is an argument I never truly understood. The Israel proper, without Palestinian territories has 20% of people identifying as Arabs. 18% of Israel proper, without without Palestinian territories is 18% Muslim. They are those that remained on modern Israeli territory when the country was created. They are not racially segregated, are full on Israeli citizens and enjoy all the rights of one. Clearly something else is going on in Israel than what you are describing.

Now, Gaza strip and West Bank are not considered as Israel, they are considered as occupied territories. And the thing is, Israel annexing those territories, where the people can be treated the same way, would unleash such an enormous amount of backlash, what we are seeing right now would be a joyous celebration in comparison. There would be mass terrorism  and utter chaos. An instant condemnation from everyone around the world. 

Hence I don't think that people accusing Israel of treating Palestianians as second-class citizens truly grasp the situation. There is huge way towards treating Palestians as any kind of class-citizens in the first place and there is a backlash from them moving towards that from literally everyone. That's one of the reasons why the conflict is in perpetual crisis mode with no visible solutions.

[Conflicting Thought]

3 hours ago, Darryk said:

Israel actually has a diverse mix of ethnicities; North African Jews, Ethiopian Jews, European Jews, Middle Eastern Jews. It's more nationalism than ethno-nationalism.

Well israel did forcibly sterilyzed ethiopian jews https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Ha, you really don't know a lot of Jews then

I'm a jew and I'm telling him there's a lot of disagreement. Hopefully that will give everyone a free pass to not lump all jews into a singular way of thinking or police who is Jewish enough.

[Zorral]

I live in the most Jewish region of the US, so Jewish that a great deal of its culture and language has derived from the successive waves of Jewish immigrants.  For years, we have moving within this, as friends, professionals, and  neighbors. All of those we know support a state for Palestinians.  And make no mistake: they all know the histories of the peoples who are their relatives and families throughout history.

Now, that's just us -- and we don't know any Orthodox or Likud, or any of the extremists.

The only time I've ever encountered anyone like that was at a Dance Theater Workshop performance series, funded and presented by the Suitcase Fund*, whose mission statement was to bring together through art, showing the differences between close, conflicting groups was more perceived than real.  One of the segments of the seasonal series was Israeli-Palestinian, with dance troupes from both Israelis and Palestinians as performers,  showing the roots and expressions of vast similarities in culture and and practice of the two.  One of the women in the audience went berserk and tried to stop the performance:  "They are nothing the same as us!  They are killers! They are killing us!  They are animals who kill us every day!" Her friends had to take her out.

Guess what her background was.

* Which sponsored our first trip to Cuba.

 

[Tears of Lys]

There's a lot of traumatized people walking around.  Who knows what her history was.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I'm a jew and I'm telling him there's a lot of disagreement. Hopefully that will give everyone a free pass to not lump all jews into a singular way of thinking or police who is Jewish enough.

You took a DNA test a few years ago and found out you have Jewish ancestry. Not exactly the same thing as a lifetime experience. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Daeron the Daring]

54 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I did not say they are the same thing, I said they are overlapping with each other.

And then you said:

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

In many places ethnicities and nations are the same thing.

Anyway.

54 minutes ago, Dofs said:

This is an argument I never truly understood.

Another thing to learn more about. Good night!

[Conflicting Thought]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You took a DNA test a few years ago and found out you have Jewish ancestry. Not exactly the same thing as a lifetime experience. 

jesus, i have known im jewish all my life, and  i second what kalnak said, we are not a monolith, jewish people who are anti zionist exist, leftist zionist exist, etc... do i meet your standards? or because im latino and jewish that means im not "really" jewish?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Conflicting Thought said:

jesus, i have known im jewish all my life, and  i second what kalnak said, we are not a monolith, jewish people who are anti zionist exist, leftist zionist exist, etc... do i meet your standards? or because im latino and jewish that means im not "really" jewish?

First, just end this talk about groups being monolithic. almost none are outside of maybe some small, isolated ones. 

And yes, you are. Two friends of mine were orphans in Columbia and were adopted by a Jewish couple here. They have spent their whole lives identifying as Jewish. 

[Dofs]

31 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Anyway.

Yeah, I said "in many places", not everywhere.

32 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Another thing to learn more about.

Good for you! 

[Relic]

20 aid trucks enter Gaza, for 2 million people. 5,000 people arrested in Gaza and the West Bank since October 7th. 30% of housing units damaged or destroyed since bombings began. 350 Palestinians killed in last 24 hours, 60% of which are women and children. 

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

There are anti-Zionist Jews, just as there are Northern Irish Protestants who support Sinn Fein, and French Muslims who support Marine Le Pen.

They exist, but they are very untypical.

That is true, and yet the descriptive should not become prescriptive.
First, as a principle, that would lead to the worst kind of essentialism. Second, because unlike the other examples you give, anti-Zionist Jews aren't actually working against their own "side." Quite the contrary, a definition of "Jewishness" that would not be limited to a religion-inspired form of Zionism is what allows one to be certain that the idea of Election (the "chosen" ones/people) at the heart of Judaism does not mechanically lead, through ethno-nationalism, to crimes against humanity.
As far as I'm concerned, anti-Zionist Jews can save the Jews from themselves, especially at times like these, when the general public does not necessarily distinguish Israelis from Jews, or is not necessarily aware that Israelis don't all support Netanyahu and his policies.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

20 aid trucks enter Gaza, for 2 million people. 5,000 people arrested in Gaza and the West Bank since October 7th. 30% of housing units damaged or destroyed since bombings began. 350 Palestinians killed in last 24 hours, 60% of which are women and children. 

And now Al Jazeera reports the Israeli Military spokesman says they are going to increase the number of airstrikes.

Quote

Israeli military says it will increase attacks on Gaza

 

Israel will intensify its air attacks in Gaza to heighten the pressure on Hamas, a military spokesman has said.

“We have to enter the next phase of the war in the best conditions, not according to what anyone tells us. From today, we are increasing the strikes and minimising the danger,” Daniel Hagari said at a press conference.

[Kalbear]

54 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You took a DNA test a few years ago and found out you have Jewish ancestry. Not exactly the same thing as a lifetime experience. 

No, it isn't the same. 

So?

Similarly, your experience of being in the US for all of your life is not the same as those born in Israel, or even the same as those who have been part of the new York Jewish community. It's not the same as those who are religious Jewish or ethnic Jewish. 

It doesn't make it somehow invalid.

And to be really clear, I don't just have Jewish ancestry - I'm 50% Ashkenazi Jewish. I can trace that ancestry 200 years back to a specific village near Vilnius. I can legally become an Israeli citizen because of my ancestry - because my father's mother is 100% Ashkenazi Jew. I can tell you why that side of the family left Lithuania and why my family settled in specific parts of the US. Nazis would have considered me (and all of my children) required to be eliminated. As a child I did do sabbath ceremonies though my mom didn't tell me why. 

I kind of resent having to declare my ethnicity to your specific standards, but I am going to do it because it is important to state. It's also something I embrace because I know that there are a whole lot of people out there who will make sure they will treat me and my kids differently because of it. 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[Ran]

The increase suggests the ground invasion is starting pretty soon, I think.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Ran said:

The increase suggests the ground invasion is starting pretty soon, I think.

Per previous statements they were going for 48-72 hours. Given religious requirements I'd expect it to start on Sunday. 

[Ran]

I'm sorry guys, for the brief moment of levity, but a strand of this conversation brought this to mind: